You always attack first

[jobo]

well if that's your RULE, that fine, I'm no idea where you live, but if I was to punch e very young man in a hoodie who came with in five foot of me round here in the dark or otherwise, I would be a) punching 20 people a day b) quite likely in jail
I've just past three separate such young men on my way back from the chip shop.
admittedly only one spoke to me. He asked if he could stroke my dog, if it was you he would be on his way to hospital now

its easy to jump to the wrong conclusion
i was lost in a very rough area, well know nationally for gun crime and gang wars, so pulled over to check my a to z. The doors opened and three huge gangster types jump in. Some what perplexed I said" what are you playing at. " your the taxi artn you "" i said no, but if you show me how to get out of this place il drop you off in town. They gave me a tenner for fare

 

[jobo]

How about this as a concept. It is personally what I ascribe to.

Guy approaching, but I can not yet tell if abad guy, good guy or just a guy, yet out of both our ranges (lot of squish in this I know, range being what it is with various weapons etc.), but this is a philosophical discussion so roll with it for a few sentences so I can get it out before objections fly).

If I can identify the combative range/distance/mai ai, before the unknown gets close to that range I engage him vocally by challenge to determine intention, i.e. "What's up mate?" or "How are you?" or "Can I help you?" depending on where and who and whatever. If they don't react to my statement and continue the approach, I adjust posture to change to aligning on potential threat(s). The next vocal challenge is direct, "No closer," or whatever. They continue to close after the direct warning and I initiate and do not wait for them to choose the engagement distance and time.

Of course, the above assumes that I note the approach, but that is part of the training is it not. Contrary to the whack 'em in the head with blunt object and just stop and walk away while they recover, if I have to engage a guy and he goes down, I keep him down and wait for the cops -- or, as has happened, he goes down and I leave his oncoming mates at top speed.

I tend to agree with the crowd of folks above who really don't want to wait for the other to actually swing first. Or stab first. Or shoot first. Your odds of getting messed up are just way too high and I like my skin without additional holes, marks or bruises. Definitely like my wife & daughter's that way, too.

This being said, you Must stop when the threat is ended. Period. I know more than one guy who did go explain it in court, and to a one, they agree that it was a bad decision at the time.

I just wander around do my own thing, don't stick my nose in other people business and people don't just randomly attack me in the street. If someone asks me for a light or the time or directions or a pound for a cup of tea, I generaly oblige, no one sucker punches me or pulls a knife on me or other wise causes me harm. Maybe they are considering it, but I pass the not to be messed with test.and no one is going to sucker punch me if I've got my eye on them

that doesn't mean im recklass, if I'm walking round in a five grand watch, flashing a wallet full of money or other wise giving the impression I'm worth robbing then maybe someone would knock me on the head. I with drew a large sum in cash, and the bank lady asked me if I was safe walking round with that amount on me, I asked do a look look like I've got twenty grand on me? She admitted I didn't, dressed in an old pair of jeans and hoodie. If id been wearing my business suit id have been scared to death

 

[drop bear]

Actually a mate of mine won big at the pokies.

And walking home they didn't ask anything. Just snuck up behind him and bashed him.

Admittedly he was almost bashed by carnies once. So he may just be a trouble magnet.

 

[Psilent Knight]

If you are alone, in the dark, and a young male in a hoody approaches, using classic distraction technique, and then encroaches into your personal space, how much more information than that do you need to know you need to do something? Do you wait until he pulls a knife or swings a punch? He isn't getting within sucker punch distance to give you a jelly baby, better to eliminate the threat before he can execute his plan.

"There is no legitimate reason for a person you do not know to get closer than five feet from you on the street unless you are in the middle of a large crown or sitting on public transportation. Trust your intuition.". Lawrence A. Kane and Kris Wilder - The Little Black Book of Violence

Paul_D, this entire post is excellent and insightful from the word "If" to the word "Violence". I can tell that you definitely Get It. I wasn't able to explain my position as thoroughly as you have even though this is exactly what I was trying to convey in my participation here. But even if I had explained myself as well as you have I don't think it would have made any difference. If a person really wants to invest in foolhardy ideas he's going to do so no matter what anyone else says.

Take Care,
Osu!

 

[jobo]

Paul_D, this entire post is excellent and insightful from the word "If" to the word "Violence". I can tell that you definitely Get It. I wasn't able to explain my position as thoroughly as you have even though this is exactly what I was trying to convey in my participation here. But even if I had explained myself as well as you have I don't think it would have made any difference. If a person really wants to invest in foolhardy ideas he's going to do so no matter what anyone else says.

Take Care,
Osu!

I suspect you mean me? Maybe we have different life experience's , no one has has randomly attacked me in me in the street since 1975 , and to be honest that wasn't all that random, I was gobbing off at the guy. All the conflict and occasional fights , had since then I have either provoked or started as some one has provoked me
ergo if I dont rise to the provocation of others and wind people up, I don't get get in fights . I don't find many people physically intimidating, but a lot of people find me so. I'm quite capable of putting up a robust defence if someone takes a swing at. Generaly speaking I'm not scared of people as I'm the one who knocks

 

[Knapf]

What's your opinion on this approach?

My opinion is.....Buk Sing Choy Lee Fat has good footwork for closing the distance if you want to attack from afar. Maybe you might want to check it out . It might be good for you if you aim to improve your offensive skills.

 

[FriedRice]

No offense but I'm not going to waste my time playing that game. In a real actual situation outside of the training hall I will not play the defensive or countering game. I will hit first, hit fast, hit hard, hit last and take my chances in court rather than playing around with romantic ideas about the Martial Artist subduing the bad guys and have my wife and kids attending my funeral.

I said it before and I will say it once more; I KNOW BETTER.

Take Care,
Osu!

That's fine, but I'm not afraid. And I'm also a counter-fighter, which makes it even better to not go first. Do you now what a counter-fighter is?

And how do you know when such a "real situation" takes place? 90% of the time, it's starts with a lot of cussing and yelling.....and 90% of this 90%, nothing physical happens and people just go home when all the major cuss words have been used more than 5x each. Doesn't sound like you've been in a lot of street beefs.

 

[FriedRice]

So your definition of:

counter - A attacks, B responds (resist, escape).
return - A attacks, B attacks back.

Nope, this is not it.

A "return" is when you block or get hit by an attack, and then you hit back. This is usually, TWO moves....the block and the return hit.

A "COUNTER", is when you get attacked 1st, but you launch your own attack immediately to interrupt their attack, causing damage. So you're countering their attack with your own attack. This is ONE move.

In general, the Counter-Fighter is looking for the opening created by the attacker, and exploiting it.

 

[FriedRice]

Apparently, everyone is required to use his terminology if discussing counter fighting.

Apparently, if you can't articulate nor argue your sets of terminology vs. mine...and what Pro Coaches use (because I just didn't make it up); then it's probably a good idea if you want to resemble someone of such knowledge.

 

[Paul_D]

Nope, this is not it.

A "return" is when you block or get hit by an attack, and then you hit back. This is usually, TWO moves....the block and the return hit.

A "COUNTER", is when you get attacked 1st, but you launch your own attack immediately to interrupt their attack, causing damage. So you're countering their attack with your own attack. This is ONE move.

To you maybe, but not to everyone else.

 

[FriedRice]

Have to disagree with you on this. If you attack first, you can force your opponent to play your game and not his. For example, if your opponent is a boxer, you start with an "arm drag" and circle around him. This way your opponent may not have chance to throw his punch before you can take him down.

I don't think this is a good example. What "good Boxer" is going to let you grab his arm like this? If you grab someone's 1 arm, their other one is going to punch you in the head.

In my street fighting days (as a minor), I used to punch people first most of the time. Sure it works. I was untrained and so were they. Most of us had "street boxing", which was just sloppy boxing. But I'm well trained now. If I just wanted to KO the hell out of people in the street over every confrontation (little or big) by throwing the first punch, it would be sooooooo damn easy. But I'll go to jail and lose everything that I own, my job, etc. sooner or later.

I guess what I'm referring to mostly, is fighting/sparring vs. other trained fighters. Being a Counter-Fighter doesn't solve everything, I get my *** beat by plenty of non Counter-Fighters. Counter-Fighters don't always not go first....we usually just don't. But there are also mixtures. Like Mayweather, he's a Defensive, Counter-Fighter....IMO.

 

[FriedRice]

Ok. Lets suggest a counter punch takes 1 beat. And a return takes 2 beats.

So a slip counter jab is a counter.
A block and punch is a return.

I'm glad someone knows. These are the terms that most pro coaching uses.

Otherwise there's no reason to have the term, "return"....if that's what many people here thinks....that a "return" is the same as a "counter".

 

[FriedRice]

To you maybe, but not to everyone else.

Hey, I thought I was on your ignore list

Don't forget, training to counter-fight on ice, sand and water. Very tactically important.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nope, this is not it.

A "return" is when you block or get hit by an attack, and then you hit back. This is usually, TWO moves....the block and the return hit.

A "COUNTER", is when you get attacked 1st, but you launch your own attack immediately to interrupt their attack, causing damage. So you're countering their attack with your own attack. This is ONE move.

In general, the Counter-Fighter is looking for the opening created by the attacker, and exploiting it.

You are not considering "resist" and "escape" here. By your definition, what will you call:

- You sweep me, I bend my leg at knee joint to let your sweep leg to pass under.
- You sweep me, I turn my shin bone into your sweep to see who has strong shin bone.
- You shoot at my leading leg, I step back and remain distance.
- You try to under hook my arm. I rotate my arm the same direction as you do so your arm just hook into the thin air.
- You punch/kick at me, I dodge.
- You push/pull me. I resist.
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you grab someone's 1 arm, their other one is going to punch you in the head.

When you drag your opponent's leading arm, you want to make sure that his back arm won't be able to reach you. In order to do so, you have to move toward your opponent's "side door (blind side)".

When your back foot line up with your opponent's both feet, his back arm can't reach you.

 

[FriedRice]

You are not considering "resist" and "escape" here. By your definition, what will you call:

- You sweep me, I bend my leg at knee joint to let your sweep leg to pass under.
- You sweep me, I turn my shin bone into your sweep to see who has strong shin bone.
- You shoot at my leading leg, I step back and remain distance.
- You try to under hook my arm. I rotate my arm the same direction as you do so your arm just hook into the thin air.
- You punch/kick at me, I dodge.
- You push/pull me. I resist.
- ...

What you posted don't seem to be returns nor counters, they're just defenses. You can say "resist", "avoid"...."dodge", "slip", "weave", etc... if you want. I'm just saying that a "return" is not the same as a "counter".

The main problem with these 2 terms is that people thinks that a counter is block and hit back = 2 moves. It's not, because that's a "return".

Otherwise, there's no reason to have this terminology of a "return" if it's interchangeable with "counter". But it makes way more sense that these 2 are different since I provided 2 distinct descriptions.

 

[FriedRice]

When you drag your opponent's leading arm, you want to make sure that his back arm won't be able to reach you. In order to do so, you have to move toward your opponent's "side door (blind side)".

When your back foot line up with your opponent's both feet, his back arm can't reach you.

The video that you posted, looks like the arm dragger is pulling the guy back into range to get hit with his rear punch. Most people will get hit by jabs when they move in like that for a Boxer's lead arm. This is similar to a Boxing tech of slapping/parrying hard, 1 of someone's high guard hand down to create an opening to punch him...but rarely works, since equally skilled opponents would resist.

Not saying that this can't work, but it seems to work only in grappling-only bouts where nobody's getting punched.

 

[Buka]

Terms vary with coaches, clubs, countries, sports etc. But the particular term isn't really important - the action is.

 

[FriedRice]

Terms vary with coaches, clubs, countries, sports etc. But the particular term isn't really important - the action is.

Can you site which pro coaching gyms confuses the terms "return" vs. "counter", especially in Boxing?

 

[Buka]

Can you site which pro coaching gyms confuses the terms "return" vs. "counter", especially in Boxing?

I don't know, I haven't been in a pro boxing gym in 15 years.

But, I don't think the word "confuses" fits in this discussion, it's not a matter of people confusing anything with anything else. It's just terminology. As for pro boxing gyms, I've been in many. And in those gyms, not all trainers use the exact same terms. But there was never any confusion, because it's all in context with what's being done at that time. And people weren't there for words and terms, they were there for training and prep.

I've been in and around boxing since I was a kid, trained with a lot of folks. I'm completely familiar with the term "return", have used it myself, but don't really any more. At a certain level, returns and counters kind got lumped together. Counters are also sometimes called "intercepts", and outside of the boxing gym, some of us use the term "time framing" to encompass all of it.

In 79 I had dinner with Tommy Hearns. I think he was 22 and 0 at the time. For three hours we talked boxing and fighting in general. It was a lot of fun. In that conversation I don't think either of us used "return', we just spoke it as counter. I trained many times with Ray Leonard, sometimes we'd use the term "return" but most times we wouldn't.

So, maybe it's a generation thing. Years ago we would describe you as a popcorn, no disrespect intended, it was just used in a descriptive sense, but that's not used much any more. Look, bro, I know you want it to be THE terminology used by everyone, but it ain't.