You afraid to die?

[Makalakumu]

Wouldn't any safety precautions taken be rooted in a deep seated fear of death?

From a scientific POV, an instinctual "necrophobia" in homo sapians is well accepted. In fact, a great many studies have been done to show how humans can overcome this fear. Anyone who faces death regularly on the job, must have some sort of anti-death conditioning or they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.

Even then, the fear of death doesn't go away, it is just buried by an overwhelming conditioned impulse. A good example of this are the Samurai, IMO. Another good example is the parent who rushes into a burning building to get their children. Their fear of death is momentarily buried by another overwhelming impulse. When all is said and done though, that fear will come back with a vengeance...and that can lead to PTSD.

I don't mean to be telling everyone that has answered "No" that they are probably wrong in their assessment. Maybe you really don't fear death. I don't know you. However, I have a good experiment that will test your conclusion about yourself.

Right now, in whatever situation you find yourself, imagine that you are holding a pistol in your right hand. You put one bullet in the carriage and spin it. Now imagine putting that pistol to your head and pulling the trigger. Can you do it? Put a couple more bullets in the carriage and spin it. Can you pull the trigger?

I couldn't and to be honest with everyone, it is because I fear death.

 

[Phadrus00]

Regardless. Would you want your life to end when you are doing something good and honorable, or doing something stupid?

Ummm how about something VERY Naughty! *evil grin*

Rob

 

[mantis]

Ummm how about something VERY Naughty! *evil grin*

Rob

that would be a shame man
at least give me time to smoke a cig afterwards so it doesnt look like it killed me!

 

[Phadrus00]

Hey Rob thank you for stopping by and I have to say I am amazed at your lack of fear over dying itself. But I doubt it is bravado from what I have read of yours and so I gotta hand it to you!!

My pleasure Jenna and you are much too kind.

Yes diabetes wow... my dad has this and much fuss over keeping the sugar below 7 right? And yet he cannot help himself with a big gobful of Ben and Jerrys for which I am his worst enemy! so I understand maybe on some very distant plateau what you are saying. Be strong though, keep your mind open to the notion of regeneration. Belief is an unstoppable thing I am convinced of it.

It is an excellent point. I believe we shape our own reality in very tangible ways. I will think regenerative thoughts! *smile*

For me it is a fear of drowning or suffocation having been hospitalized many times with asthma but these things are not to dwell on morbidly these are the things that Tsunetomo was imploring the warrior caste to think on to charge and envigorate their lives. What greater impetus to live our lives than the acknowledgement that they are finite. No more procrastination, no more daydreaming no more communicating in riddles with loved ones and friends.... maybe

Indeed! Loving Life, living without regret, embracing our passions and the blessings in our life. What better testament to our unaviodably finite existance. *smile*

I understand your "high speed" sentiment and giving your life for another and while this I think is the highest sacrifice I would URGE you never to willingly let yourself be a victim of your affliction. As martial artists we are fighters not victims. Fight it and BELIEVE you will win and NOTHING is impossible.

*smile* No retreat, no surrender Jenna. Way too much to live for. Fighting this with everything I have, and I'm still learning new stuff! *grin*

And hey if any well meaning soul gives you chocolate as a gift and you just know your doc will get all shouty at you for eating it well go on now post it to me LOL

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

I will send it Post Haste...Pun intended.. *smile*

Rob

 

[Phadrus00]

My father taught me how to die. Brave, kind, last three months after his bypasses, amputations, and kidney removal were some of the best of my life. He became fearless, somehow manifested a fearless heart, let all the love he had show right on his sleeve. I used to wheel him out to the seawall and we would talk for hours, also stopping and talking to folks, strangers who would stop and were somehow drawn to him. His death was slow and painful, but also like the most noble movie you've ever seen or book you've ever read. Amazing and transcendant. Not too many drugs, he bore the pain as an obligation, not too much sadness, a little crying here and there mostly with a hug. When it was time to go, he fought like hell, not because he was afraid but because he said that is what you're supposed to do.

He sounds like a helluva guy. You must be very proud of him! I'm so sorry for your loss but your story of his last days is inspirational.

Thank you!

Rob

 

[crushing]

Wouldn't any safety precautions taken be rooted in a deep seated fear of death?

Very interesting and good points.

When considering safety precautions we should consider that some may fear a great loss of quality of life more than death.

 

[Makalakumu]

Very interesting and good points.

When considering safety precautions we should consider that some may fear a great loss of quality of life more than death.

I would say that the two are inseparable. And, in fact, the former often leads into the latter because it is so overwhelming and the separation is not made by our psyche.

BTW - I've noticed that not many would pull that trigger...

Here is another test. You make a fool of yourself at work. Your boss hands you a knife and tells you to commit seppuku. Do you do it?

I can predict this answer. Absolutely no one would. However, it should be noted that the Samurai did do this. And even they often did not committ the act without a great amount of fear. Most often, they were assisted in the act with an unseen swift blade to the neck.

This is just another manifestation of the deep seated fear of death that is instinctual in all humans.

 

[Nomad]

I am afraid to die. My fear of death puts my seat belt around my lap. My fear of death makes me put a helmet on when I ski or ride a bike. My fear of death makes me put my PFD on when I am canoeing.

I think you're mistaking a lack of fear of death for a desire for it. This is a huge leap, IMO. Doing stupid things that put your life at risk is not defying death... it's just doing stupid things.

Everyone will die. Death could come at any time... whether driving through traffic on the way home tonight, jumping into the pool, or even sitting here typing on my computer.

Going out of your way to flirt with death (like in your russian roulette argument) is a sign of a mentally unbalanced person and is very likely to end your life prematurely.

I have a lot of things to live for. My wife, my daughters, a whole bunch of places that I would like to see and things I want to do. Therefore I will take reasonable precautions (seat belts, etc) to attempt to prevent injuries and prolong my life. But I am not afraid of death.

If you don't understand the difference, then I'm not sure what else I can tell you.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think you're mistaking a lack of fear of death for a desire for it. This is a huge leap, IMO. Doing stupid things that put your life at risk is not defying death... it's just doing stupid things.

Everyone will die. Death could come at any time... whether driving through traffic on the way home tonight, jumping into the pool, or even sitting here typing on my computer.

Going out of your way to flirt with death (like in your russian roulette argument) is a sign of a mentally unbalanced person and is very likely to end your life prematurely.

I have a lot of things to live for. My wife, my daughters, a whole bunch of places that I would like to see and things I want to do. Therefore I will take reasonable precautions (seat belts, etc) to attempt to prevent injuries and prolong my life. But I am not afraid of death.

If you don't understand the difference, then I'm not sure what else I can tell you.

For discussion purposes, I think that the separation between "fearing death and "going out of the way to avoid death" is very relevant this threads question. IMO, it goes right to the heart of the matter. I believe that the two are linked. The inherit fear of death is the prime motivation for efforts to avoid it. With that in mind, I would say that your characterization of someone who would go out their way to flirt with death is right on. Going further, I would say that a person like that is truly not afraid of death. And that person would be a rare individual indeed.

If you think there is a difference, I would be greatly interested in reading your rationale for their separation.

 

[Nomad]

For discussion purposes, I think that the separation between "fearing death and "going out of the way to avoid death" is very relevant this threads question. IMO, it goes right to the heart of the matter. I believe that the two are linked. The inherit fear of death is the prime motivation for efforts to avoid it. With that in mind, I would say that your characterization of someone who would go out their way to flirt with death is right on. Going further, I would say that a person like that is truly not afraid of death. And that person would be a rare individual indeed.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you here. I think there are many reasons and motivations to avoid death beyond fear. Not wanting to upset or leave your family who depend on you for financial support, guidance, love, and a whole host of other things is certainly near the top of my list. Having other things you would like to do or accomplish is also up there.

There are many fates worse than death. Ending up in a vegetative state with my family forced see and support me (a al Terry Schiavo) would be one of them, and I have gone so far as to put a clause in my will (and have talked to likely decision makers in my family) telling them to pull the friggin' plug already if I'm ever in this position.

Otherwise losing my mind (dementia) or being in huge amounts of pain for a prolonged period (as in some cancers) would be other fates worse than death, and IMO are far more worthy of fear. Still, I won't lose sleep over these (hopefully) unlikely possibilities... it makes a lot more sense to just get on with living instead.

 

[Bigshadow]

This is just another manifestation of the deep seated fear of death that is instinctual in all humans.

My opinion is... I don't want to die, but I really don't fear it. However, I do not want to hasten it either. Don't confuse not fearing death with wanting death.

I believe to not fear death means having the peaceful knowledge that things won't be left undone, one has a clear conscious and happy with the life they led. To elaborate further, living an unbalanced life just might leave someone feeling as though something is missing and that they then may wish they had longer and then fearing death.

Just some more thoughts.

 

[Carol]

I'm not afraid to die, I'm more afraid to live...and the suffering it entails.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you here. I think there are many reasons and motivations to avoid death beyond fear. Not wanting to upset or leave your family who depend on you for financial support, guidance, love, and a whole host of other things is certainly near the top of my list. Having other things you would like to do or accomplish is also up there.

Yet, all of these can be summed up as fear. You fear upsetting people. You fear leaving your family. You fear not being able to take care of your responsibilities. You fear not living the life you want. All of them could be viewed as just manifestations of the instinctual fear of death.

 

[Jenna]

From a spiritual perspective, I'm afraid of death because I don't believe in God. I do not believe in Heaven or Hell or Souls. I think that when we die our consciousness melts into disorder. The energy that enervated my being is conserved and transformed into other forms to be used by other life forms in the physical web. It is not taken and preserved outside of our physical universe and it no longer contains any information about me.

When I die, I will be gone...forever. Entropy will take the unique circumstance that is me and undo it. As it will undo every single thing that I do in this universe, from my genetic line, to anything I leave behind, Time will erase everything.

With that in mind, one can see that I am in no hurry to die. Every single conscious moment is unique and precious and wasting a single one of this is utter foolishness. Heaven needs to happen in the "hear and now" or it will never happen at all, IMO.

Hey John

Well I bow deeply to you because you are the first to admit to your fear of dying openly. If I had a prize you may well be a contender for it. I think fear is a thing few are willing to admit to and this is natural and maybe perceived as a sign of weakness. Ok perhaps a martial arts forum is not the place to admit such a fear but I am SO glad to hear your words and maybe know I am not irrational or the only one to hold such a fear. You say ...

Think about how we view people who don't fear death?Nuts. Crackpots. Crazies. Psychos. You name it.

I think this is true to an extent but perhaps is in some ways more typical of the likes of you and I who have no great faith and you go so far as to say you do not believe in God at all as is your proper right but yes for those who say they DO NOT FEAR DEATH and yet have no God or faith well for me I cannot help but think for the most part bravado and bluster and an dogged unwillingness to confront the issue and this is a fear in itself. However I am fully prepared to accept that there are many without faith who in their various ways have reconciled dying with continuity or with an inevitability that curbs the fear and makes it less potent.

Regarding your Entropy idea while I understand the idea I admit I am not certain how it applies here but regardless if I truly thought that every trace of me would be systematically erased simply by the attrition of sands of time against the rock of my legacy then I tell ya that would take me to a whole nuther place altogether. I am not one for believing in the here and now simply because in the here and now I am not who I can be I am not doing what I want and for the most part I am not enjoying every minute of it therefore I forego the idea of the here and now and living every day as if it were my last and I settle instead for the "might be" and the "possibly" and the "who knows" and this is a poor way to be and so my question to you if you are here is how do you do what you do? How do you be the very best you can be ALWAYS and how do you NOT waste time as I do in daydreams and impossible wishes and how do you throw off the shackles of the mundane and make as you say --your every conscious moment unique and precious-- because to know this is to know how to suppress or eliminate the fear of dying altogether.

Thank you for sharing

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

Regardless of my spiritual beliefs, I do not fear death. Observation has shown, time and time again, that nothing really begins or ends. My life has been a continuous spectrum of experience, one thing moving softly (well, sometimes harshly) into the next. I have seen nothing that supports the perception that all ends with death; therefor, it holds no fear for me. It is simply another move to another place.

Lao-tzu wrote:
"Once you've found the mother,
thereby you know the child.
Once you know the child,
thereby you know the mother,
not perishing though the body die."
--Tao Te Ching 52, Thomas Cleary translation

Good day Jim my pleasantly yolky friend

I think to say "regardless of your spiritual beliefs" is to take away a major part of what quells the potency in the fear of dying, no? Your spiritual beliefs must help you in this tho? I like the idea of continuity I really do but can I ask where is the continuity FOR YOU as a person once you die does your EGO continue or are you only continuing as part of the big machine which like a tree can shed its leaves or even whole branches without any fear of ceasing to exist. Leaves and branches are assimilated into the soil and become fuel and food for the tree and this is the continuity of nature. However the leaf and the branch are not the leaf and the branch as they were when they were attached to the bough and branch would you be at all sad to no longer have this attachment to your persistent memory your soul your mind your ego your id call it what you will?

And thank you for sharing the Lao Tsu thought. He also said that "life and death are one thread -- the same line viewed from different sides" .... and I like this because there is a wonderful implication by his choice of words of a TWO WAY path between life and death and death and life rather than our wearied vision of a fixed journey or path with a terminal destination. This is nice.... no? Anyway thank you again for sharing your thoughts!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

I have always tried to live each day as if it was my last (or the loved ones around me). I tell my wife I love her each morning before my ride to work and before we go to sleep. It has never lost any meaning for me. I want to always know I was able to tell her I loved her one last time.

I have tried to make sure I have done my best to help my friends and sometimes even strangers. I truly believe there is a better place above and all my friends and family will always be in my heart.

Knowing I was able to bring a smile to someone's face, a laugh to someone crying, or a shoulder to someone in need; helps me accept anything life or death brings my way.

Thanks for starting the thread. Makes you stop and think.

Hey now HKphooey quicker than the human eye

This is just SO sweet and there is great profoundness in the simplest things and I am envious of you telling your wife but these things are preparation in case the worst happens to us on the day or through the night at least we have not finished on a minor ninth but on a major seventh, ha! But is this REALLY the same as saying you live each day like it was your last?? I have asked already forgive me but I wonder when you ride to work what work are you doing at that place? Is it the very best you can do and that you can BE for happiness? You have unlimited options open are you as happy as you can be doing what you do and I am not for a minute trying to put words into your mouth no sir. But I hear this sentiment often and am amazed at how it sounds to my ears because if I was living today as if it were my last would I really be sitting here wherever I am... oh yes coffee and chocolate gateau mmmmm, sorry, ha! but would I really be typing this is this the best I can do at this moment? and for you the same question?? Of course you will not reply to me now to prove the point, ha! You are off living your life and being the best you can be but this is good and if I do not hear from you then thank you for sharing and you are lucky for having your wife and your wife is lucky for having you and all the best of my wishes for your happiness

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Jenna]

I'm a Christian abd believe in heaven and an afterlife and such...I'm not afraid to die for myself but I know if I died it would make life very difficult on a practical matter (to say nothing of emotional) for my wife and kids...I don't fear my death, I fear failing my family

Hey there Jay

Your strong faith gives you something that cannot be taken away EVER and that is hope and while you are faithful there is ALWAYS hope and you do well to keep that close to you! And yes for you one day Jesus will come and take you out of this shell but have you ever a thought for how the Lord may time his intervention? Naturally you believe that you will go at the appointed time but are you philosophical enough to say that even though the time may not seem appropriate for you that it in some way was the ONLY time for you to die according to that which is predetermined for you? I mean you are young you could go tomorrow with a great amount unfulfilled and all the people you have not yet touched upon or spoken to. Or you and your wife and children may finally be enjoying your life to the fullest and you are plucked up suddenly from it. Or on the other side of that coin -- and not to be morbid -- you may be suffering for a long long time you may have lost faculties or be bound and chained in that awful non compos mentis state. In this situation it is a merciful release but still we would all wish never to be abandoned for any long time in these chains - but it DOES still happen. I am sorry for meandering but my question I should have asked outright is.... is there such a thing as the wrong time -- too soon or mercilessly late for you to die?

Thank you

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I think to say "regardless of your spiritual beliefs" is to take away a major part of what quells the potency in the fear of dying, no? Your spiritual beliefs must help you in this tho?

Jenna:
I'm not saying they don't help. They do, in another sort of way altogether. My faith helps define what lies ahead. That's all it does. I came to the conclusion that life, in one form or another, exists past death (and before birth) some time ago.

I like the idea of continuity I really do but can I ask where is the continuity FOR YOU as a person once you die does your EGO continue or are you only continuing as part of the big machine which like a tree can shed its leaves or even whole branches without any fear of ceasing to exist. Leaves and branches are assimilated into the soil and become fuel and food for the tree and this is the continuity of nature. However the leaf and the branch are not the leaf and the branch as they were when they were attached to the bough and branch would you be at all sad to no longer have this attachment to your persistent memory your soul your mind your ego your id call it what you will?

You mean, will 'Jim' exist afterwards? That's the tricky question, really, isn't it? In my mind, I will return to the Unity when I move from here. My experiences in this plane will contribute to that whole; but, 'I' will no longer exist as a discreet unit of life. I firmly believe that I will join life itself, much as the leaf and bough that fall become, again, part of the tree.

And thank you for sharing the Lao Tsu thought. He also said that "life and death are one thread -- the same line viewed from different sides" .... and I like this because there is a wonderful implication by his choice of words of a TWO WAY path between life and death and death and life rather than our wearied vision of a fixed journey or path with a terminal destination. This is nice.... no? Anyway thank you again for sharing your thoughts!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

I do like that quote, as well. As a species, we tend to think linearly (which is reasonable, as we live in linear time); but, it's not the only way to see things.

Thanks for this thread, Jenna. Good on ya!

egg

 

[Nomad]

Yet, all of these can be summed up as fear. You fear upsetting people. You fear leaving your family. You fear not being able to take care of your responsibilities. You fear not living the life you want. All of them could be viewed as just manifestations of the instinctual fear of death.

We obviously view things differently here, and I truly think you have twisted my words on this to suit your viewpoint. I gave these as reasons not to be overly stupid and reckless, and to try to come home at the end of the day. You turn it and say this proves that I am afraid of death. This is a logical fallacy.

Fear kills the spirit. We have all met those who have been paralysed by their fears; who won't go to the beach because they're afraid of drowning, who freeze when they're anywhere above the 1st story of a building (sometimes even inside, with no possibility of actually falling!), who are terrified of dogs, or scared to go out at night in case they are mugged/raped/killed, etc. Every day people allow fear to control their actions and stop them from doing things they otherwise might enjoy greatly.

I am not claiming to be some superhuman who is immune to fear. If you pointed a loaded gun at my head, I have no doubt that I'd be scared. But I really don't think that's what we're talking about here (maybe I'm wrong).

To be afraid of death is pointless... eventually, it will find you. Sometimes you might see it coming (illness) and sometimes you won't (car crash). I like to think (and yes, I realize I won't really know until it's here) that I'll face my end with a degree of calm and dignity. In the meantime, the point is to live your life fully and without regrets so that if it happens to be cut short you've still made a good run of it.

If you allow fear of anything (death, heights, dogs, etc) to dictate your actions, then it rules you completely.

 

[Jenna]

I'm not afraid to die, I'm more afraid to live...and the suffering it entails.

Hey Carol
The hardest battle to win is the battle over yourself. Look down at your knuckles and tell me those are not cuts and scars and lifted skin from battles fought already. Because only when you tell me those are not really cuts will I allow you to fall down a victim. Until then let those knuckle scars taughten and hurt and remind you that you are a fighter and not a victim and wrap up your hands tightly and put your gloves back on and remember the path to the championship is fought one round at a time

Seconds out please....

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna