Yoshida Clan and Kenpo?

[M.C. Busman]

John Bishop wrote: "Julian College itself appears to be very questionable."

More than that. In a nutshell, John Williams claims to have learned Daito ryu from a mysterious Chinese feller back in the 1970's. He doesn't have any documents to prove this man ever existed, and his "lineage" consists of his claim that this man told him he was going to carry on the art. If you check out the lineage photos on William's homepage, you'll see two very badly manipulated pictures of what might be two Chinese men. When Daito-ryu started becoming popular, John Williams started calling his jujutsu-type art Saigo-ha Daito-ryu.

In Orthodox DR circles, Saigo-ha is not considered to be a "clean" lineage. Williams also makes silly mistakes one would not expect of someone who actually knew anything about Daito-ryu & its history. F'r instance, he referres to the mainline arts descended from people who learned under Sogaku Takeda "Sogaku-ha", calling those arts by the first name[/i] of their founder (Sogaku). Takeda-ha would refer to the arts of the Takeda family.

Not the sharpest fool in the shed, eh?

But who are we to tell a self-appointed 10th dan gunshi what is what.


Have a Super Day,

M.C. Busman

 

[KenpoDave]

Thanks Dave:
That last link did work, but there are several sections to go thru. I checked the "Lineage" section and found what I think you described. It talks about their Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu lineage, and lists a individual named "Tanomo Saigo" 1829-1905. I see where his bio. says that he trained in "Misoguchi-ryu" and "Kosho Ryu", but if you read the whole bio. it later refers to the art with a complete name of "Koshu-Ryu Gungaku kenjutsu", which would indicate a sword art, not a kenpo or karate style.

Thanks, John, I did not get around to reading all the bios, yet.

 

[Karazenpo]

Hey guys, as I have posted several times before: according to the historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai (Shihan Mike Brown) the Yoshida lineage is the wrong one to trace Mitose. Let me post the short article I wrote based on Shihan Brown's research.


Great Grandmaster James Masayoshi Mitose

21st Descendant Kosho Ryu Kempo

As many of you know, I have been doing a pretty comprehensive background check on the history of James M. Mitose and his contributions to our Kempo/Kajukenbo systems. I have been trying to be totally objective and I was never, originally, a Mitose detractor. I became disenchanted with the Mitose history when it just wouldn't hold up to scutiny, not in the least bit. In my quest, I have found some answers. Nothing will ever be totally clear and objective when it comes to the history of any martial art but what I am looking for is some factual evidence, some circumstantial evidence, a little logic and a basic framework of the man's legacy that makes sense. I have had my ups and down on it and my investigation is still not complete but here is what I feel is reasonable so far:

Let's start with Jinshi Eison, fact or fiction? Well, yes and no. Don't get me wrong I have a definite answer on that but it has a little explaining. Jinshi Eison lived in just the right time period we are looking at, circa. 1200. He studied in China, his Buddhist name was Kosho Bosatsu. So, it looks legit, right? Wrong. The Kanji used for Kosho in this case did not mean 'old pine tree'. It's like the kanji used for kara in karate. It can mean China (Tang) or empty. Eison's life was extremely well documented and nothing lined up and matched.

However, according to Mitose, Kosho ryu is a sect of Zen Buddhism based on the Rinzai Zen which was introduced into Japan in 1191 by the priest Eisai. Mitose considered Eisai, and for that matter Rinzai (lin chi) and Daruma himself as being his ancestors. This is something he prided himself on. Jinshi Eisan was a misinterpretation of Mitose's words (his English was poor). 1191 was when the religious Rinzai sect (lin chi) Kosho Shorei Ryu was founded. The martial art, Kosho Ryu wasn't developed until about 350 years later, around 1560. The Tracy's begin their lineage (which I will get to shortly) at 1232 AD with Zenko Yoshida. Not only is that the wrong clan but you couldn't possibly have 21 descendants to Mitose in that time period. Martial art ryus weren't developed that early on, those were the religious rinzai sects that started around circa.1200, the martial art came much later. They're about 350 years off!

The Yoshida lineage leads to dead ends and where did Kosho come from? Mitose had three grandfathers. Records provided to Shihan Michael Brown, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai historian, shows three families from Japan. 1) the Mitose family (his father's side), 2) the Yoshida family (his mother's biological father), and the Kosho family (his mother's biological mother). Mitose's maternal grandparents were not married. His mother was raised by her biological father (Mr. Yoshida) until she was 17 years old, then she was adopted by her biological mother who had married into the Kosho family. Besides the obvious connection with the name Kosho, this was the only grandfather alive when Mitose arrived in Japan in October of 1920.

James Mitose's maternal grandparents were Yoshida Sakuhei (the father of Mitose Kyoka).
Kosho Toju (the mother of Mitose Kiyoka). Mitose's grandmother was not the wife of Mr. Yoshida. Kiyoka was the result of an affair. This is in the family record.

The Tracy Yoshida lineage to Kosho ryu has no merit. They do not go back to the family art of Kosho. Thje Kosho art goes back 21 generations. Mitose's grandfather that he learned the family art from was Kosho Kyohei. This is recorded in the family records although there is no written proof that he trained at the Shaka In Temple as of yet and may never be. There are records there mentioning the term Kosho ryu. A local historian, whom I do not have his name as of this posting, stated martial arts was being practiced there up until just before WW2. The Tracy's are barking up the wrong tree, lineage tree that is! They traced the wrong grandfather, Yoshida Sakuhei. He wasn't even alive when Mitose was 4 years old.

Shaka In temple. Kosho monks and martial arts: truth or fiction? Documents provided and further research to confirm this on the internet into historical records shows that in October of 1588 the warrior monks of Shaka In clashed with the forces of Konishi Yukinaga. The battlefield is perserved to this day.

I gratefully acknowledge the assistance of Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai for his tireless and unselfish efforts in researching this' tangled web'. All that I have learned in this post came from Shihan Brown's research and I take no credit for it other than my continuing efforts in a search for the truth on this enigma. Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

Reading all the current posts I'm starting to feel both sides are right and wrong. What I mean is, those who are totally against anything positive Mitose did are wrong but are right on the negative things that have been pretty well proven and those who claim he walked on water are wrong but are right on other issues concerning the positives. Know what I'm trying to say? , lol. Hey, I first believed he went to Japan, then from what I've heard lately, it has been disproven and now, if that document is correct, it seems he did go to Japan but let's not jump the gun like CBS News did with the 'Bush Documents'. Personally, I will stick by the facts presented in his criminal trial, about his ruthlessness, his dark or criminal side but I will stay open minded on Mitose-the martial artist and his claims of lineage. As far as the term Kosho referring to a sword art still makes me wonder if there is also an empty hand version that goes along with it. Very interesting points.

 

[Karazenpo]

Let me clarify as being open minded to his lineage. I still strongly believe his Okinawan karate ties in Hawaii but I now won't rule out he may have had something going on in Japan also.

 

[John Bishop]

The claim is also that Mitose's mother's maiden name was "Komatsu", so where does the "Komatsu" family fit in?

 

[Karazenpo]

The claim is also that Mitose's mother's maiden name was "Komatsu", so where does the "Komatsu" family fit in?

No idea John but since this information came from the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai, I'm hoping someone from the Juchnik camp will comment.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

No idea John but since this information came from the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai, I'm hoping someone from the Juchnik camp will comment.

yeah me too...........this is getting wayyyyyyy interesting

shawn

ps. are any of you guys up for a live chat?

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does. (it is hiding in plain sight).

What if I was into coded messages, I used a word like dew, I was secretly trying to convey to my friend, that I got married in Vegas.

Or I just wanted to use a word that was similar but unknown to the English for maybe 20 or 50 years and still being debated.

How about this (40's) Robert Trias meets Mitose, they teach each other forms, you show me one and I will show you one, we will both put them in our school of thought to honor each other.

Mitose observed the Mon of Robert Trias, He sees the Pine Tree figures he will associate that with him because he thinks he will have a foothold in America.

He feels it is fate, (Mitose is elated) because his family name means that, but he does not want to show the family name. So he use's another name to conceal, but still have the same effect as the name of Robert Trias's Art. (still hidden in plain sight).

Now it is your turn (Professor) for new information, all I have seen or heard is the same old stuff, when do you give up some information, what is your agenda? I have told you mine. The truth.
As we go down the lane, I see you have more on your plate, then I do on mine. You are very hungry.

Mekugi can probabley throw some light on this.

Regards, Gary

 

[Mekugi]

I need the kanji. Anybody have the correct kanji on them?

Hi all,

It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does.

Mekugi can probabley throw some light on this.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

Back to the main topic.
Can anyone provide independant information that supports the premise, that at any time in history, the Yoshida Clan practiced Kosho Ryu Kenpo?
By independant, I mean information that is not rooted in the theory that Al Tracy has put forth. In other words, is there supporting evidence for Mr. Tracy's theory?

 

[GAB]

Hi John,

The Idea comes from Al Tracy, I read some more documents on the site of Dr. Sumner. I am sure the way he is displaying this information, more will come.

In the mean time, does anyone have the Kanji for Mekugi?

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi all,

It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does. (it is hiding in plain sight).

What if I was into coded messages, I used a word like dew, I was secretly trying to convey to my friend, that I got married in Vegas.

Or I just wanted to use a word that was similar but unknown to the English for maybe 20 or 50 years and still being debated.

How about this (40's) Robert Trias meets Mitose, they teach each other forms, you show me one and I will show you one, we will both put them in our school of thought to honor each other.

Mitose observed the Mon of Robert Trias, He sees the Pine Tree figures he will associate that with him because he thinks he will have a foothold in America.

He feels it is fate, (Mitose is elated) because his family name means that, but he does not want to show the family name. So he use's another name to conceal, but still have the same effect as the name of Robert Trias's Art. (still hidden in plain sight).

Now it is your turn (Professor) for new information, all I have seen or heard is the same old stuff, when do you give up some information, what is your agenda? I have told you mine. The truth.
As we go down the lane, I see you have more on your plate, then I do on mine. You are very hungry.

Mekugi can probabley throw some light on this.

Regards, Gary

Okay, Gary, ask and you shall receive but first of all let me clear this up. You gave nothing but your theories on the above post, no facts. I posted information supplied to me as fact by the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai historian. No one from the Juchnik camp has commented on it and you danced around it like I never even posted it! I previously gave you information along with John Bishop on Mitose's Okinawan connection and we presented it as FACT! We gave you the name: Nabura Tanamaha and stated he was of the Motobu lineage. Alright, you want more, you've got it! "Junichi Ito-kazu" If the Kosho Shorei Ryu camp has the true facts of James Mitose then I need not explain what I just wrote but would be interested in hearing if any of the Kosho people know! Again: "Junichi Ito-kazu" -Now, Gary, I don't think this is the same old stuff from us, do you? And my agenda, Gary? Just the truth. PS: Gary, I'm not upset with you at all, just getting into the debate, I think it's getting really good! I have respect for your viewpoints and your position as I do the others of the Kosho group but the only way we can come to the truth is by firing away! lol, as Shawn just posted recently 'it is getting real interesting!' Respectfully, Your Brother Joe

 

[Karazenpo]

Gary wrote:It is my understanding that Kamatsu in Japanese, has a similar meaning as the word Kosho does.

I say: Guarranteed Tony Kehoe from this forum can answer this. I remember one of the guys in our discussions stated he is a friend of Tony's. Please relay this to him. Thanks.

 

[kelly keltner]

Oh no! not the dreaded "Junichi Ito-kazu" heavens to Betsy my heart's palpatating. Whatever shall I do wherever shall I go.
On a serious note I suppose this is the infamous Mitose alias.

kelly

 

[Karazenpo]

Oh no! not the dreaded "Junichi Ito-kazu" heavens to Betsy my heart's palpatating. Whatever shall I do wherever shall I go.
On a serious note I suppose this is the infamous Mitose alias.

kelly

Yeah, lol, I was laughing when I posted it because I knew someone would reply like that. It reminded me of something from the Bruce Campell's 'Evil Dead' movies, lol..... but you got it, Mitose's alias. Did you hear that before Kelly or was it a guess?

 

[kelly keltner]

Yeah, lol, I was laughing when I posted it because I knew someone would reply like that. It reminded me of something from the Bruce Campell's 'Evil Dead' movies, lol..... but you got it, Mitose's alias. Did you hear that before Kelly or was it a guess?

To be honest Joe it was a guess. I figured considering the way the thread had laid itself out and corolating it with the info from related threads that the alias thing was my best shot.

kelly

 

[Karazenpo]

To be honest Joe it was a guess. I figured considering the way the thread had laid itself out and corolating it with the info from related threads that the alias thing was my best shot.

kelly

Hey Kell, to also be honest, the information I have is that this alias is on his birth certificate, however, a little while ago I viewed the link on M.C. Busman's post about the new documents released on Mitose and it shows a birth certificate with the name Masayoshi Mitose. Then again, after the way CBS News got duped with those phony Bush documents with Dan Rather on 60 Minutes Wednesday night, who knows without seeing the originals?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i know some may or may not agree with me on this....but, japanese is an esoteric language, westerners might look at it written in english (which, by the way, is only the phonetic pronounciation of these words) and see a word written the same way, but have 2 different meanings. heck, we even have that happen in english. i have seen a lot of arguments on these posts about names written in english translation......and as my japanese language teacher told me.....it means nothing, unless you see where the root of the word comes from. And on another note (and i dont want anyone to take this as a slam against them) i see lots of bad spelling errors of the english translations.....this only creates more confusion.
As for the Komatsu name, yes it could be read "old pine tree".... (as i do not have a japanese input editor on this PC i cannot give an example)....BUT only if thats the kanji used.
ON another note....relating the names of okinawan kata's or chinese ambassador's that happen to have the same "pronounciation" as kosho are completely irrelevant.....because like i said, some kanji can be pronounced many ways, as i have shown on other posts.
further.....back in the days of the heian, fujiwara, rokuhara, kamakura....ad nauseaum, okinawa and the southern islands of the ryukyu archipeligo were alternately under chinese or japanese rule. The japanese (as i have been told) did not like the okinawans or anything okinawan, and that prejudice remained in tact long after the meiji restoration....which is why "okinawan" arts remain inherently okinawan, and japanese arts the same...... that does not change the fact that japanese and okinawans seemed to love all things chinese, but, the japanese tend to "japanize" everything (much like the romans did).
Also, the japanese martial ryu's (as far as what i have been taught, and what i have read in books) do date back to pre-tokugawa period (which only started in 1600 anyway).
the yamabushi and sohei of the time also had their own esoteric group of teachings which were generally not recorded,but transmitted orally due to the fact that martial studies were restricted to the buke, and punishment usually meant not only your death, but the erasure of your entire family.
So in essence......the fact that a certain martial ryu remained secret is not entirely unplausible.
now before you jump down my throat and tell me how full of "it" i am......read this post again, and really think.......does this sound made up?

respectfully,
shawn

 

[GAB]

Hi Shawn,

I think it makes sense, I even like it, so maybe it does not make sense.:idunno:

I like what you are saying because that is what I have read and like you say we make mistakes when we write and in can be written again and again (as a mistake) not checked and the next thing you know someone has egg on their face because they did not do the homework.

I believe we have some difficulty with understanding. Just like we have difficulty with typing right all the time, some use a spell check some don't.

The English believe at this time in the world that our language is the best, I wish we would get a universal language, and start teaching that as a second language and in 50 years it will be universal.

Like I said at the start of this rambling, you are right on target.

Gichin Funakoshi, was Okinawan, so was Choki Motobu. Very different styles and different mentality. One was a warrior the other a teacher.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

Oh no! not the dreaded "Junichi Ito-kazu" heavens to Betsy my heart's palpatating. Whatever shall I do wherever shall I go.
On a serious note I suppose this is the infamous Mitose alias.
kelly

Simple solution. Have someone you know in Hawaii go to the Hawaii State Department of Health, and look up the birth certificates of a "Masayoshi Mitose" and a "Junichi Ito-kazu". Then tell us which one you find with James Mitose's picture on it. The answer is pretty simple since one does not exist for a "Masayoshi Mitose".
I've seen the "Mitose" birth documents posted on another kenpo website today, and they've been copied and faxed (by Jaime Abregana) to the Hawaii Department of Health. According to them the documents are not legitimate. According to them all Hawaii government documents of that time had the "Seal of the Territory of Hawaii" on them.