Yang Zhenduo & Yang Jun

[Xue Sheng]

In an attempt to gain a better and more positive outlook on the state of Yang style Tai Chi than I have now I have a question about Yang Style Tai Chi as taught by Yang Zhenduo or Yang Jun.

I studied Yang style for 12 years and for 9 years it was very good. The last 3 years with my Sifu were not so good, because he changed from teaching real Tai Chi to Tai Chi light to gain students.

And before I ask my question I need to say I truly mean no disrespect to Yang Zhenduo or Yang Jun. :asian:

Does anyone train with or know about Yang Zhenduo and/or Yang Jun and do they teach the real deal with fajing, push hands, internal, applications, etc., is the martial arts still intact?

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

The simple answer is yes to all your questions. As I haver said many times before on this board, Traditional Yang Shi Taijiquan has Fa Jing in every posture, it is just not as overt as in Chen style. Yang Zhen Duo is the 3rd son of Yang Cheng-fu and some say he learned more from Fu Zhong Wen (Cheng-fu's most senior disciple)than he did from his father. Have a look at this very old clip of Fu Zhong Wen performing and you will see the form a la Yang Cheng-fu/Yang Zhen Duo.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2684733084214920600&q=Tai+Chi
Yang Jun is of course Yang Zhen Duo's grandson and he learned from his grandfather. My own lineage comes from Yang Zhen Ji (2nd son of Yang Cheng-fu) and our form is the same as demonstrated by Fu Zhong Wen. I have worked with a Tung/Dong lineaged teacher and the form as I think you will agree is slightly different from Fu Zhong Wen's. However I would be interested in hearing your opinion of a comparison.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

The simple answer is yes to all your questions. As I haver said many times before on this board, Traditional Yang Shi Taijiquan has Fa Jing in every posture, it is just not as overt as in Chen style. Yang Zhen Duo is the 3rd son of Yang Cheng-fu and some say he learned more from Fu Zhong Wen (Cheng-fu's most senior disciple)than he did from his father. Have a look at this very old clip of Fu Zhong Wen performing and you will see the form a la Yang Cheng-fu/Yang Zhen Duo.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2684733084214920600&q=Tai+Chi
Yang Jun is of course Yang Zhen Duo's grandson and he learned from his grandfather. My own lineage comes from Yang Zhen Ji (2nd son of Yang Cheng-fu) and our form is the same as demonstrated by Fu Zhong Wen. I have worked with a Tung/Dong lineaged teacher and the form as I think you will agree is slightly different from Fu Zhong Wen's. However I would be interested in hearing your opinion of a comparison.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

I am a little pressed for time right now to get into great detail but there are definite differences between Traditional Yang done by the Yang Family and that done by Tung Ying Cheih.

Tung Ying Cheih
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7040453155631206049&q=Tai+Chi

First and most obvious is that Master Tung bends at the waits considerably more than Fu Zhong Wen and I have seen the same in the video I have seen of Yang Jun as well.

I am not sure which I would say was better; both have their advantages and disadvantages

I am currently debating on getting a DVD from Sifu Chu in Boston since he learned from his father who learned from I believe Yang Chengfu oldest son. I just want to see the differences.

I recently saw a student of Yang Chengfu do the form and it is once again a little different than any thing I have seen before.

But if you see Yang Jwing Ming in Boston do Yang style, it is obviously different since his line comes from Yang Binhao, but he is still bends at the waist less than Master Tung.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for your input. Yang Cheng-fu's eldest son Yang Zhen Ming (Yang Sau Chung) went to Hong Kong and apparently began teaching his own form which differed from his fathers form. This probably accounts for the differences in the current Yang/Tung styles. Fu Zhong Wen transmitted the form as finally formulated by Cheng-fu and this is evident from the illustrations in his book "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan". The illustrations are taken directly from photographs of Yang Cheng-fu in his later years, doing the form. My own Master studied with Fu Zhong Wen and was made a 5th generation Yang lineage holder by both Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo. I am fairly confident therefore that the form I do comes directly from Yang Chen-fu. I noticed the main differences in Master Tung's form is as you say, bending at the waist. Fu Zhong Wen is quite specific on this point "In all transitions, the body is upright". The high stepping and "cross stepping" is also not done in Traditional Yang, neither is the lifting of the front toe in "Grasp The Bird's Tail"
Both Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo (and Yang Jun) teach the internal and the martial aspects of the form. Yang style is very much alive and Kicking as a CMA. At least it is in this branch of Yang Family Taijiquan.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for your input. Yang Cheng-fu's eldest son Yang Zhen Ming (Yang Sau Chung) went to Hong Kong and apparently began teaching his own form which differed from his fathers form. This probably accounts for the differences in the current Yang/Tung styles. Fu Zhong Wen transmitted the form as finally formulated by Cheng-fu and this is evident from the illustrations in his book "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan". The illustrations are taken directly from photographs of Yang Cheng-fu in his later years, doing the form. My own Master studied with Fu Zhong Wen and was made a 5th generation Yang lineage holder by both Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo. I am fairly confident therefore that the form I do comes directly from Yang Chen-fu. I noticed the main differences in Master Tung's form is as you say, bending at the waist. Fu Zhong Wen is quite specific on this point "In all transitions, the body is upright". The high stepping and "cross stepping" is also not done in Traditional Yang, neither is the lifting of the front toe in "Grasp The Bird's Tail"
Both Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo (and Yang Jun) teach the internal and the martial aspects of the form. Yang style is very much alive and Kicking as a CMA. At least it is in this branch of Yang Family Taijiquan.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

Yang Chengfu was Tung Ying Cheih's teacher as well. It appears that Tung changed it after he started teaching. However I have also read that Tung may have studied Wu before learning from Yang Chengfu and I have even read one account that claim Tung first learned from Yang Chengfu's older brother and when he died started training with Yang Chengfu

And although the current Yang family form is very good and I of course cannot vouch for this, since I did not learn from Yang Chengfu. According to the gentleman I talked to that was Yang Chengfu's student the current Yang family form is slightly different as well. Although he was saying nothing against it, just that is was a bit different.

But is the currently accepted Yang family style and it is good Tai Chi

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

You will understand of course, that I was not trying to say that the Yang form I do, is necessarily any better than any other Yang form. I would however suggest that it is nearer to Yang Cheng-fu's last manifestation of the form, than many that I see today. There are as many people "who studied with Yang Cheng-fu" as there are variations in the Yang form. I must conclude that either Yang Cheng-fu was a very sloppy teacher, or some of the claimants are fantasizing!!! To go back to your original question, Yang Jun has just produced two new DVD's of the form. Both available via the International Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Association .
www.yangfamilytaichi.com
Both DVD's show the martial applications for every posture in the form as well as explaining the form itself. Beautifully produced but expensive!!!!!! but well worth a look.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

You will understand of course, that I was not trying to say that the Yang form I do, is necessarily any better than any other Yang form. I would however suggest that it is nearer to Yang Cheng-fu's last manifestation of the form, than many that I see today. There are as many people "who studied with Yang Cheng-fu" as there are variations in the Yang form. I must conclude that either Yang Cheng-fu was a very sloppy teacher, or some of the claimants are fantasizing!!! To go back to your original question, Yang Jun has just produced two new DVD's of the form. Both available via the International Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Association .
www.yangfamilytaichi.com
Both DVD's show the martial applications for every posture in the form as well as explaining the form itself. Beautifully produced but expensive!!!!!! but well worth a look.

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

I agree with what you are saying.

The variations could also come from when they learned from Yang Chengfu. I believe, as he got older he changed some things himself.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Just had more time to look at Master Tung's form and noticed his Fa Jing is much more apparent than Fu Zhong Wen's. I would love to have seen a recording of Yang Cheng-fu to compare to two!!!

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Just had more time to look at Master Tung's form and noticed his Fa Jing is much more apparent than Fu Zhong Wen's. I would love to have seen a recording of Yang Cheng-fu to compare to two!!!

Very best wishes

Alistair Sutherland

Your right, I had to go take another look myself. And this brings me to a "I'm and unobservant idiot moment" I have been doing this for years and not noticed, there are movements in my form that have more apparent fajing. But then again I never noticed the bend in the waist until I saw that Tung video about a year ago and I had been doing it for years.

I would also like to see Yang Chengfu do this himself, but I doubt that is going to happen since he died in 1936. But there are multiple pictures of him in postures from both young and old. It is intersting to see the differences. Young Chengfu tends to have a lower wider stance.

One that is from the Yang Chengfu line via Tung, that I once saw a video of doing the form and push hands, with Fajing demonstration, that was absolutely amazing was Tung Ying Chieh's son that use to live in Hawaii. He passed away several years ago, but his taiji was very good. His name escapes me for the moment if I think of it I will post it here.

I have also been told by a couple of people that Master Tung's book is well worth the price. I am going to pick it up soon and after I am done I will probably have a post or 2 about it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, after a bit of thought and realization or 2 about the fact that I am doing a form that looks more like the form of Tung Ying Cheih than any of the Yang family. And regardless of what my Sifu said and per the Yang family and very likely per the Tung/Dong family I am not doing Yang style I am doing Tung/Dong style and have been for 12 years.

Wow, ain't that a kick in the pants.

Now I really got to get that book and a DVD from them to check this out.

Dong Family Tai Chi
http://www.dongtaichi.com/