Yang Mian
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Steel Tiger
Senior Master
Just checked out the site (its Aussie, woohoo) and the videos. The Steel Hand and Steel Body stuff looked like pretty standard qi legerdemain to me, that would deduct from its uniqueness. I don't know about the elbow freestyle, looked like they were just doing the same thing over and over, and the last guy, Guiseppe, everything he threw was way too high. Maybe he's just short, but most of his techs were aimed above someone's head.
The school is clearly associated with the Sydney University which should lend it some credibility, but I don't think the videos did them good service.
The school is clearly associated with the Sydney University which should lend it some credibility, but I don't think the videos did them good service.
pete
Master Black Belt
since finding this under the tai chi chuan forum and poking around a bit at their site, i'm not sure this is tai chi or 'internal' martial art. not saying good, bad, or indifferent. but here's my rationale:
(1) tai chi chuan is a balance of hard and soft, characteristically hard on the inside and soft on the outside (where xingyi, also internal is hard on the outside and soft on the inside. these guys look to be training to develop external hardness, iron bell cover, etc.
(2) internal arts train to respond with full consciousness and mind intent, where external arts train countless repetitions of pre-programmed responses in order to deliver unconscious reflex response (or the term 'muscle memory') - read the 'freestyle' description on the site and see where these guys fit.
(3) tai chi chuan works on the principles of complimentary opposites (yin & yang). for every up there is a down, for every left there is a right - in looking at the video of their 'power punch' exercise, i see total relaxation but no counterbalance, all energy is going in the same direction. this is similar to what i experienced in a Systema workshop i attended several years ago. not like tai chi chuan at all, not internal by definition.
maybe it's good stuff, maybe not... nobody will ever really know from a couple of paragraphs and video clips. those are just some observations from the gallery. maybe someone who has trained with these guys and understands their art will post more...
pete.
(1) tai chi chuan is a balance of hard and soft, characteristically hard on the inside and soft on the outside (where xingyi, also internal is hard on the outside and soft on the inside. these guys look to be training to develop external hardness, iron bell cover, etc.
(2) internal arts train to respond with full consciousness and mind intent, where external arts train countless repetitions of pre-programmed responses in order to deliver unconscious reflex response (or the term 'muscle memory') - read the 'freestyle' description on the site and see where these guys fit.
(3) tai chi chuan works on the principles of complimentary opposites (yin & yang). for every up there is a down, for every left there is a right - in looking at the video of their 'power punch' exercise, i see total relaxation but no counterbalance, all energy is going in the same direction. this is similar to what i experienced in a Systema workshop i attended several years ago. not like tai chi chuan at all, not internal by definition.
maybe it's good stuff, maybe not... nobody will ever really know from a couple of paragraphs and video clips. those are just some observations from the gallery. maybe someone who has trained with these guys and understands their art will post more...
pete.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Kung fu yes, External yes
Internal no, Taiji no
Internal no, Taiji no
jamesjbs
White Belt
Hello,
As a new member to this site, I found this thread from 2007, regarding Yang Mian.
As a student of Yang Mian, I'd like to say that it is very much an internal style, focusing on the development of fajing as may be seen in the videos on youtube and on the Yang Mian website. www.yangmian.com
Its focus is upon developing flexibility and power instead of specific techniques. This allows practitioners of any martial arts to adopt Yang Mian as a supplement to their existing training in order to quickly raise their levels.
This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!)
1. The training does not rely on external strength, rather, the cultivation of chi to develop fajing. Once base power develops, the techniques are then learnt in a relatively short time, without years of repetition of forms.
2.The elbow freestyle you saw uses some of the 26 different elbows of the Yang Mian System. In addition there are many other aspects to learn including steel body,steel hand,ghost hand,reflex mind etc,etc.
You are right, Systema would be the only other place to use the entire body offensively but I do not know if it is using internal power.
May I suggest checking out a site : which gives a Taiji practitioners viewpoint of Yang Mian. www.taichiacademy.com.au/courses.php?id=21
As a new member to this site, I found this thread from 2007, regarding Yang Mian.
As a student of Yang Mian, I'd like to say that it is very much an internal style, focusing on the development of fajing as may be seen in the videos on youtube and on the Yang Mian website. www.yangmian.com
Its focus is upon developing flexibility and power instead of specific techniques. This allows practitioners of any martial arts to adopt Yang Mian as a supplement to their existing training in order to quickly raise their levels.
This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!)
1. The training does not rely on external strength, rather, the cultivation of chi to develop fajing. Once base power develops, the techniques are then learnt in a relatively short time, without years of repetition of forms.
2.The elbow freestyle you saw uses some of the 26 different elbows of the Yang Mian System. In addition there are many other aspects to learn including steel body,steel hand,ghost hand,reflex mind etc,etc.
You are right, Systema would be the only other place to use the entire body offensively but I do not know if it is using internal power.
May I suggest checking out a site : which gives a Taiji practitioners viewpoint of Yang Mian. www.taichiacademy.com.au/courses.php?id=21
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Note: In Chinese martial arts the whole body is considered a fist
.
Also for the record
Master Yang is not associated with the Yang Taiji family nor do I see anywhere on his site where he claims to be associated with the Yang Taiji family or Taijiquan for that matter. His background appears to be
Trained with Chan Zi in Monkey System Kung Fu
Trained with Yi Chen, in the Shaolin martial arts, philosophy, and Buddhism
Trained in "other" martial arts
.
Also for the record
Master Yang is not associated with the Yang Taiji family nor do I see anywhere on his site where he claims to be associated with the Yang Taiji family or Taijiquan for that matter. His background appears to be
Trained with Chan Zi in Monkey System Kung Fu
Trained with Yi Chen, in the Shaolin martial arts, philosophy, and Buddhism
Trained in "other" martial arts
blindsage
Master of Arts
If you can refer to a specific video that demonstrates fajin that would be great because I don't see any.
What does this mean? The practioner's movement is so fast it breaks the sound barrier?
Many martial arts do this. And all of the 'internal' arts use the entire body offensively while using 'internal power'.
Strategically placed marketing is your reference?
jamesjbs
White Belt
Interesting replies, In answer
I did not intend to imply that Master Yang had association with Yang Taiji family.The holder of this website is however also a student of Master Yang.Thats all, I thought it might offer some info.
I also dont know the guy, so the 'Strategically placed marketing is your reference' statement is lost. Breaking the sound barrier? What are you talking about..?
For my part, after 8 years of Brazilian Jujitsu, I came to this style which offers everything I want and thats the end of it for me. Talk is cheap check it out for yourself.
I did not intend to imply that Master Yang had association with Yang Taiji family.The holder of this website is however also a student of Master Yang.Thats all, I thought it might offer some info.
I also dont know the guy, so the 'Strategically placed marketing is your reference' statement is lost. Breaking the sound barrier? What are you talking about..?
For my part, after 8 years of Brazilian Jujitsu, I came to this style which offers everything I want and thats the end of it for me. Talk is cheap check it out for yourself.
mograph
Master of Arts
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I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.
After all, although yiquan (for example) is now established and its founder's reputation is strong, if one were to come across yiquan for the first time through its YouTube videos, one would think it was pretty stupid. Its reputation seems to exist independently of those videos, but that reputation was built over time, through martial challenges at the beginning.
Although in this day and age, I doubt that we would see an old-style "all comers" challenge to prove the worth of Ying Mian and its founder outside the organization. However, I don't see why established martial artists couldn't visit, and if impressed, spread the word.
I myself, however, have seen how the claims of a founder can become quite exaggerated by its adherents. The only claims that hold water for me are specific, first-person claims such as "I could only do that before, and I can do this now." I don't place much worth in general claims about what an art can do. To me, they sound too much like marketing claims, with the risk of a cult-like devotion based on those marketing claims. I've been there, and made those claims myself ... erroneously.
Anyway, it's hard to judge an internal art by its videos, or any general claims of its adherents. Maybe it's something special, maybe it's not, maybe it's a collection of established techniques under a new name. If I lived in Australia, I might check it out.
After all, although yiquan (for example) is now established and its founder's reputation is strong, if one were to come across yiquan for the first time through its YouTube videos, one would think it was pretty stupid. Its reputation seems to exist independently of those videos, but that reputation was built over time, through martial challenges at the beginning.
Although in this day and age, I doubt that we would see an old-style "all comers" challenge to prove the worth of Ying Mian and its founder outside the organization. However, I don't see why established martial artists couldn't visit, and if impressed, spread the word.
I myself, however, have seen how the claims of a founder can become quite exaggerated by its adherents. The only claims that hold water for me are specific, first-person claims such as "I could only do that before, and I can do this now." I don't place much worth in general claims about what an art can do. To me, they sound too much like marketing claims, with the risk of a cult-like devotion based on those marketing claims. I've been there, and made those claims myself ... erroneously.
Anyway, it's hard to judge an internal art by its videos, or any general claims of its adherents. Maybe it's something special, maybe it's not, maybe it's a collection of established techniques under a new name. If I lived in Australia, I might check it out.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I did not say he did imply that he was associated with the Yang family, I was just posting based on previous posts and my previous assumption that he claimed he was Taijiquan... and he did not
However I am sorry I do not see anything fajing or "internal"
This is not to say it is bad, it may be very good, I just do not agree with the fajing and internal claims.
blindsage
Master of Arts
The link you posted for a Taiji perspective has all the hallmarks of a marketing piece.
This was a response to your statement, "This results in a practitioner developing power which can be heard up to 30m away in a short period of time (2 years!) ". What are you talking about?
I'm glad you found something you like. The videos actually look fine to me, and in order to evaluate it's quality I would definitely agree that I would have to experience it in person. The problem is that some of the claims you make don't make sense, and the comments you chose to respond to don't address them.
What does this even mean, and what does it prove?
There is not a single example of fajin in any of the videos on the website. I don't see any evidence of this statement. Could you refer me to a specific video?
This is incorrect. A lot of arts use the entire body offesively, and all of the 'internal' arts use the entire body while using internal power.
None of my comments have to do with the quality of the art. They are specific references to specific statements.
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jamesjbs
White Belt
Most of your statements are fair enough. I can see how you would assume the marketing angle, although it was more my enthusiasm than anything else.
The whole thing is you'd need to check it out in person as you say.
The whole thing is you'd need to check it out in person as you say.
5rings
Yellow Belt
yes I believe it to be an Internal art, and I like the idea of fast development in the style, the freestyle movements were Impressive, lots of elbows at odd angles dismantle any good defense, it's like watching Bon Sao gone wild........This type of defense works for me. very Impressive!
"Alway try to think outside the Traditional Box"
G'day guys and gals. Hopefully I can clear a few things up for anyone interested in a bit more info about the Yang Mian system. I have currently been training with Master Yang for almost 1.5 to 2 years. Basically once I started to understand how it worked I never looked back, I would say that its easy to learn, but takes time and patience to master. Basically the more you train the better you get, very simple. Some people learn fast,some people learn slow, theres nothing wrong with that and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
Yang Mian's system is internal as mentioned earlier, I have a friend who also does Tai Chi and says it is very similar, which rely's on fa jing and to obtain fa jing properly you must be relaxed no matter what move you are trying to do. Once you understand how to be relaxed, you will pick up the power, you will strike faster, use less energy and when you hear that thump, you know your getting it right.
So far in the time I have been training I have been taught and know off by heart, 10 different elbows, 2 different punches and a few hammer fist variations, 1 grappling technique ( I haven't focused on grappling yet). Have been doing steel hand since I started, steel body, steel forearm and have developed basic fa jing in most of my moves. Im by no means perfect, developing proper fa jing takes time, and ive still got a lot more power that can be developed. the thing that I found is the thump isnt always a good indication of how strong you are, usually you have to hit someone to find out. Ive already did lots of testing with my mate who also trains with me and we test each other and yes, I can tell you now, it hurts on the inside, and usually leaves a slapping pain on the outside due to the speed of the move. From what Ive seen of Bruce Lee's documentary's and training footage, he definitely has fa jing. Another thing that I noticed, Qi plays a big role in this style of martial arts. He also teaches a few moves which are not shown or mentioned which develop the Qi which I believe is the key to it all. From what Ive gathered about Qi so far is that producing Qi sort of like charges you like a battery charger charges the battery, except theres no limit to your charge, you just keep developing stronger Qi the more you try to develop it. That Qi you develop in turn makes your martial arts much more stronger.
I was very scepticle at the start as everyone has a right to be, a lot of masters claim alot and rarely deliver. The thing I found as the best course of action is to give it a try. Previously Ive done Taekwondo, not very long mind you, regardless it doesn't require rocket science to figure out if a teacher is good or not and the best way to find out is to train with them for a while. No risk, no reward. After doing taekwondo I heard about master Yang from a mate who had been already training, so I gave it a try, once I did it, I never went back to taekwondo. Also im not trying to say that taekwondo is not good, its just that I found that it wasn't for me.
The first step you need to consider when choosing your martial arts style is to look at what you want to get out of it. Do you want defense, offense, counter-attack, etc or a combination of them. If you have worked out what you want, all you need to do is simply do a bit of research on which martial arts focuses on your chosen style and go for it. Best way to find a good master is through friends or word of mouth or to ask around, even complete strangers, I do it all the time. Once you have heard about a few masters, go try them out. Try to find masters that teach traditional martial arts or close to it, your better off for it, and make sure they teach conditioning, I cant stress how important that part is, make sure you do it.
As most of you have learned or will learn, practice makes you good, a lot of practice makes you very good, and no your not born with great martial arts skills. I know this is a lot of info to take in, but I believe martial arts should be shared to everyone, not kept secret and forgotten, which a lot of masters tend to do.
Hopefully I have been of some help.
Yang Mian's system is internal as mentioned earlier, I have a friend who also does Tai Chi and says it is very similar, which rely's on fa jing and to obtain fa jing properly you must be relaxed no matter what move you are trying to do. Once you understand how to be relaxed, you will pick up the power, you will strike faster, use less energy and when you hear that thump, you know your getting it right.
So far in the time I have been training I have been taught and know off by heart, 10 different elbows, 2 different punches and a few hammer fist variations, 1 grappling technique ( I haven't focused on grappling yet). Have been doing steel hand since I started, steel body, steel forearm and have developed basic fa jing in most of my moves. Im by no means perfect, developing proper fa jing takes time, and ive still got a lot more power that can be developed. the thing that I found is the thump isnt always a good indication of how strong you are, usually you have to hit someone to find out. Ive already did lots of testing with my mate who also trains with me and we test each other and yes, I can tell you now, it hurts on the inside, and usually leaves a slapping pain on the outside due to the speed of the move. From what Ive seen of Bruce Lee's documentary's and training footage, he definitely has fa jing. Another thing that I noticed, Qi plays a big role in this style of martial arts. He also teaches a few moves which are not shown or mentioned which develop the Qi which I believe is the key to it all. From what Ive gathered about Qi so far is that producing Qi sort of like charges you like a battery charger charges the battery, except theres no limit to your charge, you just keep developing stronger Qi the more you try to develop it. That Qi you develop in turn makes your martial arts much more stronger.
I was very scepticle at the start as everyone has a right to be, a lot of masters claim alot and rarely deliver. The thing I found as the best course of action is to give it a try. Previously Ive done Taekwondo, not very long mind you, regardless it doesn't require rocket science to figure out if a teacher is good or not and the best way to find out is to train with them for a while. No risk, no reward. After doing taekwondo I heard about master Yang from a mate who had been already training, so I gave it a try, once I did it, I never went back to taekwondo. Also im not trying to say that taekwondo is not good, its just that I found that it wasn't for me.
The first step you need to consider when choosing your martial arts style is to look at what you want to get out of it. Do you want defense, offense, counter-attack, etc or a combination of them. If you have worked out what you want, all you need to do is simply do a bit of research on which martial arts focuses on your chosen style and go for it. Best way to find a good master is through friends or word of mouth or to ask around, even complete strangers, I do it all the time. Once you have heard about a few masters, go try them out. Try to find masters that teach traditional martial arts or close to it, your better off for it, and make sure they teach conditioning, I cant stress how important that part is, make sure you do it.
As most of you have learned or will learn, practice makes you good, a lot of practice makes you very good, and no your not born with great martial arts skills. I know this is a lot of info to take in, but I believe martial arts should be shared to everyone, not kept secret and forgotten, which a lot of masters tend to do.
Hopefully I have been of some help.
blindsage
Master of Arts
The theory sounds good, but I don't see this demonstrated anywhere on the website, can you refer me to a video that shows this?
None of the systems that Bruce Lee studied taught fajin, if you see it in his movement then you are confused as to what fajin is.
Sorry, I have the wrong spelling for fajin. Actually your right Blindsage, I dont think there is any videos of the sound coming from the elbows and punches.
All Ive seen are videos of the river rock breaking
and Charlie doing his freestyle dragon elbow http://www.yangmian.com/videos/freestyle/52.wmv another video of Tony punching a pavement brick in half
. Ive trained with charlie and Tony, Ive only met Rami a few times, Rami has already gone back to Germany and is currently teaching now, Rami already knows a form of martial arts, he wouldn't say what it was but when I saw him do a demonstration it looked like Krav Maga, but I could be wrong. Here's a video of Rami being taught by Master Yang, this is probably a good example of the style I could find, by the way, Rami only trained for around 3 months with Master Yang
. Actually its strange why they haven't done any videos on the sound that is produced, I suppose it has to be seen to be believed. To be honest I had to actually train with Master Yang before I believed any of his martial arts system, but once you try it, you soon understand and you can make your own mind up after that.
Regarding Bruce Lee, that was just my opinion, that is just one of my theories, but I cant prove otherwise, and who's to say that he revealed all that he learned. Just something to ponder.
All Ive seen are videos of the river rock breaking
Regarding Bruce Lee, that was just my opinion, that is just one of my theories, but I cant prove otherwise, and who's to say that he revealed all that he learned. Just something to ponder.
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jamesjbs
White Belt
There is a video somewhere on the following site http://www.yangmiansteelhand.com/index.html with the power sound coming from body when executing the punches.
(Drifter, like you, I also had to go and see it for myself).
(Drifter, like you, I also had to go and see it for myself).
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Power sound coming from anywhere does not equal fajin
fajin requires Internal training, proper relaxation (both internal and external), proper body alignment, flexibility and breath coordination with movement.
fajin requires Internal training, proper relaxation (both internal and external), proper body alignment, flexibility and breath coordination with movement.
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blindsage
Master of Arts
Fajin is not demonstrated by a sound. Someone posted a Chen Xiaowang video on another thread that demonstrates what fajin looks like. None of the Yang Mien videos demonstrate this. That's not saying the system isn't good, or any value judgement period. It's just saying that I don't see anything related to fajin. Fajin is not just hitting relaxed with waist power, which is what the videos show. This is a great method for generating power, but it is not fajin.
I'm not making a statement whether or not I 'believe' in Master Yang's system. I'm saying a specific statement was made and the evidence is not there to back it.
Bruce is one of the most studied MAists who ever lived. We pretty much know what he studied. None of it taught fajin. But again, relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajin.
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