Xingyi again...maybe

Discussion in 'Chinese Internal Arts : Taijiquan (Tai Chi) and Qi' started by Xue Sheng, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,605
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    Don't know what it is, or was, but teaching taijiquan again and working on Sun and thinking about teaching full time with I retire (9 years from now if my hips and knees hold up)... but it has me considering a return to serious training in Xingyiquan. Talking to a teacher that is supposed to be incredibly good, but it would be a bit of a trip to get to him and even then it would be only once or twice a month. .

    So far it is a thought and a discussion, that is all.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. DanT

    DanT Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    228
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    Planet X
    Can you explain Xingyiquan to me? It's one of the only internal styles that I never learned. I'm interested in adding it in one day... Give me as much as you can.
     
  3. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,605
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    Xingyiquan: attack is attack and attack is defense.
    Xingyiquan view of things (IMO) I'm going to hit you, hard.

    Other than that I have all sorts if stuff here on MT on Xingyiquan, look for Xingyi addict (title not user name) posts, Also there are some Xingyi posts in my blog

    Look for books by: Di Guoyong, Sun Lutang, Dennis Rovere
    Videos by Hai Yang

    Santi Shi - Trinity Pile Standing

    Xingyiquan – The Gompa
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,035
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    IMO, the word Xing can also mean "walk". It strongly emphasizes on mobility. The strategy is even if you can't find any opening to attack, you keep moving. Through moving, soon or later you will find opening to attack. To drill a punch left and right for over 1 miles non-stop is a very common XingYi training. It is the opposite of the Taiji principle that if you don't move, Ii won't move. If you move, I'll ..."
     
  5. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,354
    Likes Received:
    410
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Xue Sheng is welcome to chime in, but it has been said ...
    • In taijiquan, you are a rubber ball.
    • In baguazhang, you are a spinning top.
    • In xingyiquan, you are a wrecking ball.
    I like the guy in this video.
    BTW, the forward hand can block or parry. But it's all about forward movement.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,605
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    I like that...and I shall now use it rubber ball, spinning top, wrecking ball :)

    Hai Yang, one of my favorites, is in Montreal.... not that far from you....compared to how far he is from me

    I have said this many times
    • In taijiquan, defense is defense and defense is attack
    • In baguazhang, attack is attack and defense is defense.
    • In xingyiquan, attack is attack and attack is defense.
    or
    • taijiquan has infinate patience
    • baguazhang has some.patience
    • xingyiquan has no patience
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Dong xiao hu

    Dong xiao hu Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Aaaah xing yi. There is or was a school near me. Talked to the shifu he said he would be starting classes up again after June. No activity the school since before may. I was looking forward to getting back into the art. Oh well guess I'll just have to keep doing what I already know.

    Sent from my H710VL using Tapatalk
     
  8. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,151
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    143
    If you have Amazon Prime, there is an episode of "Kung Fu Quest" that highlighted Xing Yi. It goes over a bit of history, strategies and training methods.
     
  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    5,153
    Likes Received:
    1,427
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Do what you love.
     
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,035
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    If you have cross trained many different MA systems, when you get old, which MA system will be your best friend? IMO, the XingYi system emphasizes too much on punching and not enough on kicking. Old saying said, "If you don't use it, you will lose it". If you use XingYi to "train for health" for the rest of your life, you may lose all your kicking skill, single leg balance, and leg flexibility.
     
  11. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,605
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    Define not enough kicking please.
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,035
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    I'll say 2 punches and 1 kick, or 3 punches and 1 kick will be a good ratio. When you create a MA training form for health, if you create that form with 60 moves, you should have 40 punches and 20 kicks, or 45 punches and 15 kicks.

    I assume we are talking about "health" here and not "combat". Why kick is so important for "health"? It forces you to stand on one leg. The more that you kick, the less chance that you will fall. To reduce the chance of falling is very important for "old people".



     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,605
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    5 elements has at least 2 different kicks, one sweep, plus a knee strike and 5 different (obvious) hand strikes (there is actually more than 5), there are variations. And you do not fight with Xingyiquan using the forms exactly as trained. As a matter of fact once you get the 5 elements down it is best to mix them up and work with many different orders. So you could throw any number of punches you like combines with any number of kicks you need. I believe confining yourself to 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 limits your effectiveness, and in some cases adherence to a patterns can hurt you. What is missed by many in Xingyiquan is that it is not necessary to hold to the forms and that it can effectively stand and fight, if need be, without any forward motion.

    I do not train 12 animals but I believe there are at least 5 different kicks trained in 12 animals and at least 12 different fists, again training the pattern is for training purposes only and will not be used in any specific order in application. so you can have a 2 to 1, 3 to 1, 1 to 3, 2 to 3, 1, to 2, 12 to 5, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

    As to the not standing on one leg. you can do every single form in the 5 elements with a kick, you turn and kick with bengquan, so I am not sure where you are getting the idea that Xingyi does not stand on one leg or kick.
     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,035
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    As long as you add in enough kick into your daily training, it doesn't matter what style that you train for "health". You will maintain good health through your old age. During my daily training, I train 1 step 3 punches combo. I also train front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick combo. This way my punching training and kicking training can be balanced.

    I have a long fist combo with 3 punches, 1 joint lock, and 4 kicks.

    1. front kick,
    2. palm strike,
    3. wrist lock,
    4. side kick,
    5. back kick,
    6. hammer fist,
    7. front kick,
    8. face punch.

    I also have a 6 moves XingYi combo with 6 punches and no kick.

    1. Pi Chuan,
    2. Zuan Chuan,
    3. Heng Chuan,
    4. Beng Chuan,
    5. Protect groin hammer fist,
    6. Pao Chuan.

    When I train both drills, I can see a big difference for the final result of my health. IMO, if you only train XingYi 5 elements, it may not be good enough for your "health".
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  15. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,354
    Likes Received:
    410
    Trophy Points:
    123
    My master likes a simple heel kick to the knee or instep, sometimes camouflaged by upper body attacks.
    Nothing high, nothing to "finish." Damage their ability to stand and/or walk, and you're good.
     
  16. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2008
    Messages:
    1,354
    Likes Received:
    410
    Trophy Points:
    123
    FYI, KFW: Quotation marks are not used for emphasis in English. Instead, they indicate that the word inside the quotes is not the writer's own words, or that the writer does not really believe in the word inside the quotes. Instead, a word is best emphasized by using the italic and/or bold button above.
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,035
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    You are right! I always quote "internal" because I don't believe there is any difference between "internal" and external. I will never quote external.

    I use quote on "health" to indicate that I'm not a "MA for health" person. I believe that MA training is for combat and not for "health". The "health" is only the byproduct of the MA training.

    I may start to quote "self-defense". When A's fist meets on B's face, I truly don't think there can be any difference between "self-defense" and fighting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  18. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    28
    There is no rules saying you can not kick or that any of the 5 fist must be even fists! In my opinion they are energies with different principles and theories for me personally thinking that they are just fists limits the scope of what it can actually be. I see no conflict with Piquan being used to grab or adding a kick when stepping.

    In my opinion you don't have to kick for health, you can simply swing the legs loosely during warm up. Xingyiquan has its own stretching routine in some schools that emphasis it more or less. All schools stress the importance of San ti shi which if done properly does results in overall health, each fist or energy has connection to the Zangfu organs and follows the Wuxing element theory for health in Chinese medicine.

    In my opinion martial training depends on what that person wants to accomplish, some use it for learning self defense others use it as a way to achieve enlightenment.
    I personally train Xingyiquan mostly just for Santi and I go through the Wuxingquan routine just so I do not forget it and a new perspective.

    I think Xue Sheng should do more Santi shi.
     
  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,605
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    I never said for health, although I do know you did, and, per usual, we do not agree. But that's ok, If you train 5 elements right it is good for health and for SD. And training it right is more than just training forms
     
  20. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2006
    Messages:
    26,605
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    North American Tectonic Plate
    Did a lot of Santi Shi, think it is important, but much overly depended upon, and over trained. And in some cases it can lead to one forgetting that the Santi Shi posture has to ultimately move and when moving, maintain that structure.
     

Share This Page