WSL methods video

[wckf92]

Saw this over on another forum. Some of what this dude says matches what LFJ and Guy have posted in the past. I'm not sure who this person is or who he learned from but I'm guessing since he is in Europe perhaps he took lessons from PB(?). Perhaps LFJ or Guy can clarify.

 

[geezer]

Yeah, I looked him up online. Apparently he's of the Wong Shun Leung-Philip Bayer lineage and operates schools in the Netherlands. I was listening to the video wondering who is this guy speaking something that sounds kinda like German interspersed with phrases in remarkably unaccented English. Dutch, of course! My parents took me to the Netherlands as a boy and one thing I remember is how well many Dutch speak English. It's positively disconcerting to monolingual Americans.

 

[Dylan9d]

His name is Silvano Bonafe, I had a couple of lessons from him and he is a pretty good teacher.

He is a student of Ed Blom and Philip Bayer.

He practices Ving Tsun for over 30 years now.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Yet another instructor using the ol "we are a martial science not a sport" argument cunningly disguised as "sport arts like Thai/boxing/kickboxing don't work on the street but ours does". If I visited a school where the instructor said this kinda stuff (especially no sparring until chum Kiu, wtf?) I would make my excuses and leave.

 

[geezer]

Yet another instructor using the ol "we are a martial science not a sport" argument cunningly disguised as "sport arts like Thai/boxing/kickboxing don't work on the street but ours does". If I visited a school where the instructor said this kinda stuff (especially no sparring until chum Kiu, wtf?) I would make my excuses and leave.

Science, not a sport? An odd argument to be sure. I always thought that the martial sports were the most "scientific" disciplines. They are constantly trying new things, then experimenting and testing them in the laboratory of controlled competition. That's a rough approximation of the scientific method. It's also Darwinian. Competition selects for the most successful strategies.

Now the self-defense, not a sport argument makes a little more sense, since the objectives of self defense and competition are different. Competition pits two opponents of roughly similar size and experience against each other in a controlled, "fair" setting with the objective of "winning" as defined by a particular rule-set.

Self-defense is geared at avoiding, escaping, or at least surviving an attack in an unequal situation in which your attacker or attackers believe they have a distinct advantage over you, be that size and strength, numbers, weapons, terrain, etc. The different objective (escape and survival vs. "winning") demands a different approach to training. Of course a very fit, tough MMA fighter would physically and psychologically have a great advantage. But what about a late middle-aged businessman or business woman? Clearly a different teaching method from competition training is indicated. And a different method of testing the product. IMO this is what is often missing.

Perhaps the problem is that WC is presented as both a competitive art and self-defense system. I believe it can be both, but they are two different aspects. Guys like Alan Orr are making a great effort to restore WC as a competitive art ...or at least as a component of the competitive mix. Others may prefer to emphasize WC as self-defense. And some try to use the argument that WC is just for self defense as an excuse not to test its precepts. I think it's this last position that you and I both find problematic, Saul.

 

[geezer]

@Saul-- One other thing. You really do need Chum Kiu material (steps, turns, and kicks) to spar.

Of course you can start teaching that stuff starting on day one. The form can come later. I'd think a few months of drills and two man of exchanges would be a good amount of time to ingrain the "muscle memory" necessary for controlled free-sparring. Of course you could start sooner, but the result wouldn't be WC. At least in my experience, any less time and people fall back on "old habits" and whatever they've learned previously. Not WC.

If you have had different experiences, please share them!

 

[SaulGoodman]

Disagree, I've had snt level students put on the gloves and be able to have a good basic sparring game after a few months. once they are equipped with basic footwork, 4 gates awareness (and the ability to protect that airspace), basic striking skills and have worked their form(s), drills and sensitivity. I build it up gradually, allow the student to dip their toes into minimal contact sparring with no head shots and gradually increase the pressure over time. To be sure there are students who aren't into sparring (at all) and some who even when at ck level ain't great, but there's more than just forms and drills that give one fighting ability. Like it or not natural attributes can make a big difference regarding timing, aggression and the ability to take a punch and not fold. I've had students who love a good tear up and others who baulk at the idea. To the students that don't want to spar I say "fine, but your training will just result in an untested skill set".

Obviously if we add the chum Kiu "engine" and it's component parts the student will have more weapons.

 

[geezer]

I said:

You really do need Chum Kiu material (steps, turns, and kicks) ...The form can come later. I'd think a few months of drills and two man of exchanges would be a good amount of time to ingrain the "muscle memory" necessary for controlled free-sparring.

You said:

I've had snt level students put on the gloves and be able to have a good basic sparring game after a few months. once they are equipped with basic footwork, 4 gates awareness (and the ability to protect that airspace), basic striking skills and have worked their form(s), drills and sensitivity.

I think we are saying pretty much the same thing, i.e. a few months and basic tools. I'd include advancing steps, turns, and then a simple front kick. But we teach those along with SNT, even though they first appear in Chum Kiu. Initial sparring is friendly, light contact with no kicks. My group is mostly older guys who most definitely are not training to be like Josh Kaldani!

BTW have you (or has anyone else) noticed that the "true believer" faction has been absent lately and threads are not dissolving into frustrating and futile arguments?

 

[SaulGoodman]

Yes Geezer, I haven't been around lately and was expecting the usual torrent of abuse from "the usual suspects" as I was making observations about a "VT" instructor. Tell you what though, I was thinking about the whole sparring thing and I think unlike wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu where you can pretty much go full out to test your skills with minimal(ish) risks and know how effective they are, ultimately with striking you have to compromise so much more and have to use an element of speculation to determine whether your skills will be enough.

 

[Vajramusti]

Yes Geezer, I haven't been around lately and was expecting the usual torrent of abuse from "the usual suspects" as I was making observations about a "VT" instructor. Tell you what though, I was thinking about the whole sparring thing and I think unlike wrestling/judo/jiu jitsu where you can pretty much go full out to test your skills with minimal(ish) risks and know how effective they are, ultimately with striking you have to compromise so much more and have to use an element of speculation to determine whether your skills will be enough.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a person is good he/she can control the power of the strike and still send a message-depending on the context.
Judo people get injured too- a friend of mine who was top ranked in two countries had broken bones
and a partly paralyzed side of the face.

 

[LFJ]

As WSLVT goes, it's more efficient and reliable to follow the system in sequence, not to skip important stages of development and jump ahead to where unnecessary errors will arise. It may be counterintuitive to some that early sparring will not allow one to reach the goal sooner, but the system is set up in stages for a reason. Followed as prescribed, it results in better quality VT, and in a shorter amount of time. Other systems may differ.

 

[Dylan9d]

Yet another instructor using the ol "we are a martial science not a sport" argument cunningly disguised as "sport arts like Thai/boxing/kickboxing don't work on the street but ours does". If I visited a school where the instructor said this kinda stuff (especially no sparring until chum Kiu, wtf?) I would make my excuses and leave.

I know this instructor personally, and it's easy to judge a person based on one video were he tries to promoto his martial art. The guy is very humble and he is a very good instructor.

I don't practice VT but I had a few lessons with him and I consider him as one my friends. So maybe train with someone before you judge.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Im very happy you think he's good. I wouldn't train with this guy as I don't like some of the things he says in his clip, no big deal.

 

[geezer]

As WSLVT goes, it's more efficient and reliable to follow the system in sequence, not to skip important stages of development and jump ahead to where unnecessary errors will arise. It may be counterintuitive to some that early sparring will not allow one to reach the goal sooner, but the system is set up in stages for a reason. Followed as prescribed, it results in better quality VT, and in a shorter amount of time. Other systems may differ.

I personally agree with what you say here and apply the same thinking to instructing within my lineage.

However, it is also useful to consider that WSL fought before he learned Yip Man's VT, he fought while learning VT, and fought even better after mastering VT. The same is true of anyone who is temperamentally a fighter. In the WT lineages, Emin fought as a kid before he studied WT, he fought while training in WT, and continued to fight better after gaining considerable skill in WT. A friend of mine knew Hawkins Cheung. He said that "...that little guy" (Hawkins) "fought from the time he was a kid... he had to!". He didn't wait to learn WC first. The same was probably true for all the WC guys who were fighters.

My point? Just that whatever the ideal instructional progression may be, fighters will fight whether they are "ready" or not!

 

[geezer]

I don't practice VT but I had a few lessons with him and I consider him as one my friends. So maybe train with someone before you judge.

Yeah. WC/VT people often tend to be quick to pass judgement. We've had a few of those overly judgemental types on this forum. I think Saul would agree with that.

 

[Danny T]

I personally agree with what you say here and apply the same thinking to instructing within my lineage.

However, it is also useful to consider that WSL fought before he learned Yip Man's VT, he fought while learning VT, and fought even better after mastering VT. The same is true of anyone who is temperamentally a fighter. In the WT lineages, Emin fought as a kid before he studied WT, he fought while training in WT, and continued to fight better after gaining considerable skill in WT. A friend of mine knew Hawkins Cheung. He said that "...that little guy" (Hawkins) "fought from the time he was a kid... he had to!". He didn't wait to learn WC first. The same was probably true for all the WC guys who were fighters.

My point? Just that whatever the ideal instructional progression may be, fighters will fight whether they are "ready" or not!

My Sifu says some of the people he trained with would not fight while others did and they fought often. They would train for a few weeks then out on the streets of Hong Kong they would fight. Lot of gangs so finding someone to fight was easy. Win or lose they would go back to the school assess what worked, what didn't work, and why. Train it and back out onto the streets again. Those who didn't fight much or at all weren't looked down upon but they also didn't get the same attention from Jiu Sifu as those who did in training. Jiu would scold them for fighting but worked more with them and was far more upset if they lost than at them for fighting. If someone lost a fight he would punish them by making them do additional exercises to burn out their arms and legs before training. So they would always say they won but if not he'd some how always found out and then the training was even harder.
There are those who will fight and those who will just train.

 

[Dylan9d]

So what I'm tasting here is a bit of "if you never fought, your ****" flavour?

What a load of ********, sorry Saul and Geezer but do you both fight every day in the street? DannyT do you honour your teacher by doing the same by fighting in the street?

LMAO

 

[Danny T]

So what I'm tasting here is a bit of "if you never fought, your ****" flavour?

What a load of ********, sorry Saul and Geezer but do you both fight every day in the street? DannyT do you honour your teacher by doing the same by fighting in the street?

LMAO

I think you are reading for more into this than what is being expressed.

 

[wckf92]

For the record...I created this thread because aside from vids of PB posted by LFJ and Guy (to explain their WSL stuff to us) I'd never run across anything else. I thought it was interesting that the guy in this video seems to echo a lot (if not all) of what we've read from LFJ and Guy posts. And if I recall correctly, LFJ actually stated once that in the WSL line (i.e. WSL - PB - others...) the material, thinking, strategy, methods, etc are seamlessly passed on as each generation absorbs their VT. To me, that is interesting...because it seems to be a stand-alone characteristic when compared to other lineages of WC. Most seem to change or adapt or modify...and hence pass down something different.
Anyway, hopefully this thread won't circle the drain...

 

[geezer]

So what I'm tasting here is a bit of "if you never fought, your ****" flavour?

What a load of ********, sorry Saul and Geezer but do you both fight every day in the street? DannyT do you honour your teacher by doing the same by fighting in the street?

LMAO

Fight every day? Absolutely. Except Sundays ...that's family time. I frequently go out and patrol the inner city alleys in just my boxer shorts so it's clear that I'm unarmed, and provoke confrontations with groups of heavily armed gang-bangers just to keep my edge.

Last night at 3 am I shut down a really noisy party over on the West Side and one rough looking guy (about 7' 2" tall, 430 lbs.) tried sticking a 12 gauge in my mouth to shut me up. Just used my "iron jaw" technique to bite down and crimp the barrel shut. When he pulled the trigger, the breach blew and the blast knocked him unconscious, not to mention his serious injuries from the shrapnel. My Iron-Shirt training kept me unharmed although my ears have been ringing all day. Pity to ruin a nice old Remington 870 pump like that, but the idiot had already sawed-off the barrel, so no guilt.




OK now back to reality. Seriously, Dylan, WTF????

Here's what I said above:

...initial sparring is friendly, light contact with no kicks. My group is mostly older guys who most definitely are not training to be like Josh Kaldani!

...I mentioned that I approve of occasional light, controlled-contact sparring (actually we use with headgear with face grills) so that even older guys like me and my group can play freely with our techniques without risking injury. What does that have to do with fighting?

Honestly, if I'm expressing myself that poorly, I going to have to take some remedial writing classes!

So I hope I cleared that up. . ..Oh, and BTW it's my birthday today!!! I just made it to 61.