Wouldn't it kind of go against some of what JKD represents?
Would you train under a fat and out of shape JKD guy
- Thread starter James Kovacich
- Start date
I figure most good martial artists fall into:
1) Good teacher
2) Good technician
3) Good fighter
A fat teacher could be 1 or 2 or both. He may have been 3 earlier in life. He can still teach alot. He just may not be able to demonstrate it.
Its easy to find someone good in at least 2 of these. Its VERY hard to find someone good in all 3. And being a good fighter means they must have competed or used it significantly at some point....then it get's more difficult trying to determine what's a glorified recollection, versus statistical fact. Easier to verify #3 in BJJ, as at least competition results will give some type of reading.
Rooke
PS: Geez James! Now you're making me feel guilty for the pizza I had last night!
1) Good teacher
2) Good technician
3) Good fighter
A fat teacher could be 1 or 2 or both. He may have been 3 earlier in life. He can still teach alot. He just may not be able to demonstrate it.
Its easy to find someone good in at least 2 of these. Its VERY hard to find someone good in all 3. And being a good fighter means they must have competed or used it significantly at some point....then it get's more difficult trying to determine what's a glorified recollection, versus statistical fact. Easier to verify #3 in BJJ, as at least competition results will give some type of reading.
Rooke
PS: Geez James! Now you're making me feel guilty for the pizza I had last night!
What does JKD represent with regard to physical fitness? Is there a BL quote out there that says "fat people need not apply?" Personally, I'm a "show me" kind of guy, if the guy can pull off what he is showing, fantastic. If not, well, I going to be pretty skeptical, and if I am skeptical of an instructor for very long I'm probably going to be looking for a new one.
Omar B
Senior Master
You can learn something of value from anyone. If his credentials are in order why not? I've seen instructors who are a couple steps away from what one would consider ideal.
while you can be very skilled while being out of shape, BL was pretty clear in his writings & his life on the high value of physical fitness in his jkd. so i'd be much less likely to train under an out of shape jkd instructor than other out of shape teachers.
jf
jf
blindsage
Master of Arts
I thought the notion that martial artists had to look slim and cut to be good and/or in shape was ended by Sammo Hung's existence.
Jenny_in_Chico
Black Belt
Fat does not always equal out of shape. There are a lot of fat people out there who are incredibly muscular and who have amazing cardio and endurance. Although I myself am fat (and my cardio needs improvement), my muscular development and strength is exceptional, and I am a fast and lethal striker.
Of course, there are also lots of fat peope who are, indeed, out of shape. But the two are not mutually exclusive.
Of course, there are also lots of fat peope who are, indeed, out of shape. But the two are not mutually exclusive.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
I'm sorry everyone, fat is a bad choice of words. I really was thinking grossly out of shape.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #11
I borowed the topic from another forum and the responses were very interesting. I'm only posting my thoughts though. I personally beleive that weight isn't an issue but grossly out of shape very much is.
JKD the art, requires physical abilities, the training alone requires physical abilities.
JKD the art, requires physical abilities, the training alone requires physical abilities.
prokarateshop
Orange Belt
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He may have a lot of knowledge.. he may not have the conditioning to fight...
dungeonworks
Black Belt
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I would have no problems if the guy was overweight. Especially if he was knowlegeable and a good credentialed teacher. If he was morbidly obese and didn't try to take care of himself, probably not. Over the years, I have trained with lots of beer gut carriers that were fast, had good cardio, and fun to train with. Nothing scarier than a big guy that can move!
My WC instructor is significantly overweight. He is also fast, skilled and amazingly strong. I'm older, bigger, much more fit, and actually began training years before he did. But he's way better than I am. And, fat or not, he can use his strength way more efficiently...
So, heck yes I'll keep training with him. I'd be an idiot not too.
simplicity
Green Belt
Are you guys kidding me? I can learn from anyone....
ap Oweyn
Brown Belt
I guess the question behind the question is "does a teacher have to be able to perform the art himself in order to teach you to do it?"
Instinctually, it makes sense that he would. But then that fails to explain folks like Cus D'Amato. Boxing puts a high premium on fitness, performance, and actual results. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a coach has to--at present--be able to do the things he's advocating.
I've had teachers who were confined to a wheelchair, walked with a cane, etc. Not generally capable of doing the things that they were telling me to do. (Though that doesn't mean that they had never been able to do what they were telling me to do. But regardless, it doesn't mean that they were incapable of insight on something, even without direct personal experience.)
Being a good teacher and being a good fighter don't necessarily always intersect. Certainly, I think it's valuable to be able to draw from personal and immediate experience. And it's very tempting to discount anyone who can't "practice what they preach." At the same time, the ability to motivate a fighter, observe them, adapt their movements, and analyze their performance is what makes a good teacher. And I'm not entirely convinced that requires that you be able to "keep up" with them on the mat.
Stuart
Instinctually, it makes sense that he would. But then that fails to explain folks like Cus D'Amato. Boxing puts a high premium on fitness, performance, and actual results. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a coach has to--at present--be able to do the things he's advocating.
I've had teachers who were confined to a wheelchair, walked with a cane, etc. Not generally capable of doing the things that they were telling me to do. (Though that doesn't mean that they had never been able to do what they were telling me to do. But regardless, it doesn't mean that they were incapable of insight on something, even without direct personal experience.)
Being a good teacher and being a good fighter don't necessarily always intersect. Certainly, I think it's valuable to be able to draw from personal and immediate experience. And it's very tempting to discount anyone who can't "practice what they preach." At the same time, the ability to motivate a fighter, observe them, adapt their movements, and analyze their performance is what makes a good teacher. And I'm not entirely convinced that requires that you be able to "keep up" with them on the mat.
Stuart
jkd friend
Green Belt
I would nut i would like to see there work ethic.
First if you are training or learning JKD: Bruce said you have to test yourself and techniques in SPARRING....if your FAT...you can't do this! Please dont argue this point! Now I think he can lecture you on a philosophical level and you can learning it...but you will not be doing JKD!
But the whole technician crap....read below.
This is from a question asked of Matt Thornton:
What about those that say you can be a good technician without necessarily being a good fighter.
Think about it... how can you be a good technician if you can't fight? It doesn't make any sense. You don't say... hey that guy is a good boxing technician... but when he spars he just gets mauled everytime. Or that wrestler is a good technician, but his takedowns suck... or that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guy is a good technician, but he cant fight on the ground at all. If you said that you would sound insane. But people say that in JKD all the time. Its another in a long line of myths.
You can be a tough fighter without being technical, due to aggresion, size, explosiveness, strength, etc. But you cannot be a good technician without being able to fight, its impossible.
Its similar to when people tell me they think I have taken the Art out of Martial Arts... that its all about fighting only with us... I reply, Art of what?
The Art is in the performance, the doing. Art is in the performance, sharing, and experience of the training itself.
Also, anyone can be a fighter. A good coach can show anyone of even moderate to low athletic ability and intelligence what it takes to become a good fighter. Now, not everyone may then want, or need, to make the sacrifices necessary to get to that level of performance.
But the whole technician crap....read below.
This is from a question asked of Matt Thornton:
What about those that say you can be a good technician without necessarily being a good fighter.
Think about it... how can you be a good technician if you can't fight? It doesn't make any sense. You don't say... hey that guy is a good boxing technician... but when he spars he just gets mauled everytime. Or that wrestler is a good technician, but his takedowns suck... or that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guy is a good technician, but he cant fight on the ground at all. If you said that you would sound insane. But people say that in JKD all the time. Its another in a long line of myths.
You can be a tough fighter without being technical, due to aggresion, size, explosiveness, strength, etc. But you cannot be a good technician without being able to fight, its impossible.
Its similar to when people tell me they think I have taken the Art out of Martial Arts... that its all about fighting only with us... I reply, Art of what?
The Art is in the performance, the doing. Art is in the performance, sharing, and experience of the training itself.
Also, anyone can be a fighter. A good coach can show anyone of even moderate to low athletic ability and intelligence what it takes to become a good fighter. Now, not everyone may then want, or need, to make the sacrifices necessary to get to that level of performance.
still learning
Senior Master
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Hello, Two Barbers...one super nice haircut..the other..not so nice..
Which one would you choose to cut your "hair" ?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Answer: the guy with the ugly haircut...because he cut the Nice haircut guy!
Yes..images is very important...NOT a necessity....Playing a role model is expect in the Martial arts...many expect our Teachers to be physical fit conditions and many are..
Knowledge and teaching skills...has nothing to do with a big body....
...if the person is knowable and skillful in teaching...we would train under them,
Aloha, ....now the question is? ...what shape are you in? ..for your learnings..
300lb Teacher teaches you a 540 spinning kick or 300lb student learning a 540 spinning kick...which would have a better outcome? ...
Which one would you choose to cut your "hair" ?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Answer: the guy with the ugly haircut...because he cut the Nice haircut guy!
Yes..images is very important...NOT a necessity....Playing a role model is expect in the Martial arts...many expect our Teachers to be physical fit conditions and many are..
Knowledge and teaching skills...has nothing to do with a big body....
...if the person is knowable and skillful in teaching...we would train under them,
Aloha, ....now the question is? ...what shape are you in? ..for your learnings..
300lb Teacher teaches you a 540 spinning kick or 300lb student learning a 540 spinning kick...which would have a better outcome? ...
