would you honor your agreement?

[Ninjamom]

I am not a MA school owner, but I have run a business. I don't have a problem with contracts in general because
1) They allow the school owner to plan, budget, invest in equipment, and schedule instructors better (more in keeping with the need).
2) People generally commit to things they pay for. My experience (in business and as a parent) is that most people don't value things you give them, and if you make them pay or sign a written commitment (even for a short term or a small amount) they will tend to value it more and take it more seriously.

OTOH, I would hope that if I ever have my own school, the contracts would allow:
1) Exemptions for injury or death,
2) a reasonable buy-out, and/or
3) Ability to transfer to another person

 

[stickarts]

I am not a MA school owner, but I have run a business. I don't have a problem with contracts in general because
1) They allow the school owner to plan, budget, invest in equipment, and schedule instructors better (more in keeping with the need).
2) People generally commit to things they pay for. My experience (in business and as a parent) is that most people don't value things you give them, and if you make them pay or sign a written commitment (even for a short term or a small amount) they will tend to value it more and take it more seriously.

OTOH, I would hope that if I ever have my own school, the contracts would allow:
1) Exemptions for injury or death,
2) a reasonable buy-out, and/or
3) Ability to transfer to another person

Thanks for the reply! Some of the provisions you mention are required by law. Others are optional. We do offer to transfer the membership in many cases. Good points.

 

[14 Kempo]

Personally I would honor the contract that I signed, as long as I was getting what I paid for. I have asked for and received a release of a martial arts contract in the past, the reason, there was no value for my dollar and I was able to show them that I was correct in that statement, or at least gave them enough reason to refund my remaining investment.

We do not use contracts at my school. Reason, we are a new school with multiple instructors that all own a part of the business. In our case, we put the pressure on the instructors to run good classes and provide value. I'd rather see people return cause they are getting that value rather than that they signed on the dotted line. Students that feel they are not receiving value for the dollar, but that are in class because of a contract, can become a cancer within the group. People talk, people express feelings ... if they are unhappy, it will be known by others.

 

[stickarts]

Personally I would honor the contract that I signed, as long as I was getting what I paid for. I have asked for and received a release of a martial arts contract in the past, the reason, there was no value for my dollar and I was able to show them that I was correct in that statement, or at least gave them enough reason to refund my remaining investment.

We do not use contracts at my school. Reason, we are a new school with multiple instructors that all own a part of the business. In our case, we put the pressure on the instructors to run good classes and provide value. I'd rather see people return cause they are getting that value rather than that they signed on the dotted line. Students that feel they are not receiving value for the dollar, but that are in class because of a contract, can become a cancer within the group. People talk, people express feelings ... if they are unhappy, it will be known by others.

Thanks for the reply and great points. I agree that students attending only because of a contract is not good for anyone.

 

[MBuzzy]

Oh sorry by the way if I personally sign a contract I would honor it, my word and integrity is worth more than the money I promise to that individual. I am also surprise others have not brought up that point, we teach it everyday to our students.

While I personally value integrity and personal word very much...I think that I've been involved in too many contract negotiations and business arrangements (outside the MA world that is). Which leads to my basic belief that in the end, teaching MA is a business (i.e. students pay for a service, instructors provide that service).

I view this as a business arrangement, where integrity is important, but money is also important. I feel that it is a lack of integrity on the instructor's part moreso to require people to pay who are obviously not attending. That just seems like a slimy business tactic to me. If someone approaches you and says "My child has completely lost interest, we no longer wish to attend, I would like to be released from the contract" and the response from the instructor is: "Too bad, you signed, now you have to pay for the next 4 years, whether you attend or not." To me...that is slimy business and a lack of integrity and morals. If they offer no relase clause, offer no options to get out, and most importantly when you signed up, offered no choice for a shorter contract....I really would feel no obligation to continue and under those circumstances, I believe that I could win a case in civil court based on a flawed contract and misleading advertising and business practices. Basically, I'd go for the common man defese - in a civil situation, would a common man expect the contractee to continue paying when they are receiving no service?

Again, I would personally look for an escape clause and be perfectly happy to pay whatever fee the instructor asked for to be released from the contract, but if no option were provided, that isn't a lack of integrity from me. Just based solely on the definition of the word....I dont' feel that I'm doing anything wrong by not paying. I would probably draft a letter, enclose a check for 2-3 months of classes and tell the instructor that I would no longer be paying and if he wished to collect for the next 4 years, he should contact my attorney.

As I said, I have enough contracting experience to know that NO contract is iron-clad....and I view this as a business arrangement, not a point of ethics or integrity. I pay money, I receive services; if I pay money and receive no service, I stop paying.

 

[stickarts]

While I personally value integrity and personal word very much...I think that I've been involved in too many contract negotiations and business arrangements (outside the MA world that is). Which leads to my basic belief that in the end, teaching MA is a business (i.e. students pay for a service, instructors provide that service).

I view this as a business arrangement, where integrity is important, but money is also important. I feel that it is a lack of integrity on the instructor's part moreso to require people to pay who are obviously not attending. That just seems like a slimy business tactic to me. If someone approaches you and says "My child has completely lost interest, we no longer wish to attend, I would like to be released from the contract" and the response from the instructor is: "Too bad, you signed, now you have to pay for the next 4 years, whether you attend or not." To me...that is slimy business and a lack of integrity and morals. If they offer no relase clause, offer no options to get out, and most importantly when you signed up, offered no choice for a shorter contract....I really would feel no obligation to continue and under those circumstances, I believe that I could win a case in civil court based on a flawed contract and misleading advertising and business practices. Basically, I'd go for the common man defese - in a civil situation, would a common man expect the contractee to continue paying when they are receiving no service?

Again, I would personally look for an escape clause and be perfectly happy to pay whatever fee the instructor asked for to be released from the contract, but if no option were provided, that isn't a lack of integrity from me. Just based solely on the definition of the word....I dont' feel that I'm doing anything wrong by not paying. I would probably draft a letter, enclose a check for 2-3 months of classes and tell the instructor that I would no longer be paying and if he wished to collect for the next 4 years, he should contact my attorney.

As I said, I have enough contracting experience to know that NO contract is iron-clad....and I view this as a business arrangement, not a point of ethics or integrity. I pay money, I receive services; if I pay money and receive no service, I stop paying.

Thanks for the reply! There are escape clauses required in the contracts, specific language that is required in the contracts, as well as buyers rights that must be posted and visible in the school. If this is not followed by the school owner then they would have no legal grounds to receive payment and would also be in violation of state laws which may mean penalties. I know of schools that have been shut down for not adhering to the statutes. In addition to following all of the laws, I agree that school owners should offer options when a student has payment and / or attendance issues.

 

[MBuzzy]

Thanks for the reply! There are escape clauses required in the contracts, specific language that is required in the contracts, as well as buyers rights that must be posted and visible in the school. If this is not followed by the school owner then they would have no legal grounds to receive payment and would also be in violation of state laws which may mean penalties. I know of schools that have been shut down for not adhering to the statutes. In addition to following all of the laws, I agree that school owners should offer options when a student has payment and / or attendance issues.

Agreed - my biggest issue is when the school offers no option for shorter contracts. If you walk in the door and tell you that you MUST sign for 4 years, I see that as a big foul.

Also, I've seen a few contracts that wouldn't even hold up in court (a lot of what my opinions are based on) because they don't include some of that required verbage. There are plenty that just write it up themselves, or hire a lawyer to write it and nothing else....if it is just a paper made up in word, it holds no water. Plus, technically, unless it is signed by both parties in presence of each other with a witness signing, you can get out of it. Even then, without a notary, it isn't difficult to get out of. I see many MA contracts as simply being an agreement, very loosely binding. More of an arrangement and an agreement for paying; as was stated above, more for budgeting and planning than anything else.

 

[Senjojutsu]

Most Hollywood marriages don’t last four years… and you want me to sign a multi-year agreement?
Are you a dojo or my mortgage company!?

Sorry for the venting – no not really.
Many states, because of documented abuses in the fitness industry, now have business laws protecting consumers against these multi-year package deals, especially the discounted pre-paid tuition plans.

Foremost, with a fitness gym you are buying (okay renting) the use of the facilities first, at a physical location and specified hours of operation, and maybe “some” instructional training/classes.

But in the martial arts you are PRIMARILY PAYING FOR INSTRUCTION within a specific methodology, which we call “a style”, often with an identified individual teacher you have chosen.

The physical facilities have always been secondary in martial arts - it’s the teacher and the style. As to my evidence - when the sensei/sifu/instructor ever leaves/dies/retires that school often closes its doors. It happens all the time.

What happens with pre-paid tuitions / auto EFTs if the gym or martial arts school closes?

What happens when you join & sign up for “a style” that over the years gets “modified/enhanced” by the school’s instructor, can I leave then with recourse?

Also what if significant personality/conceptual conflicts arise between teacher and student during the months of instruction – the relationship will/should end. Within a fitness gym who cares - as long as the machines are still there to do work-outs and the lights are on.

So over an extended time what if the dojo changes its days/hours of instruction? Monday & Wednesday evening classes were great for me, but now they are on Tuesdays & Thursdays and I cannot make it. But I still pay?

In our modern, mobile, uncertain American lifestyle - who really knows what we will be doing in one year from now?

I am talking about adults, never mind the uncertainty of having children as students.

 

[newGuy12]

I don't sign contracts. If a contract is necessary for a Dojang, I will pay it up front. If I do not have the money, then I will not join.

Same with the weight lifting gym. If I have the money to pay up front, I will, but no contracts.

 

[arnisador]

I like MBuzzy's answer. A 4-year contract involving a minor is unreasonable, even if the parents are the ones actually signing the document. It isn't a lack of integrity to test whether or not it's legally enforceable by sending a letter and a compromise payment as he indicates. The law provides a lot of protections for consumers, and the contract is subject to these.

It would also matter to me whether they were offered a month-to-month contract and elected this as for a steep discount or as a way to coerce Johnny to keep attending ("Mommy and Daddy paid a lot of money for this so you must go!"). I'm imagining that they had few other payment options if they wanted to attend there and were upsold into a long-term contract when they didn't know what we know about the martial arts business.

 

[MBuzzy]

It would also matter to me whether they were offered a month-to-month contract and elected this as for a steep discount or as a way to coerce Johnny to keep attending ("Mommy and Daddy paid a lot of money for this so you must go!"). I'm imagining that they had few other payment options if they wanted to attend there and were upsold into a long-term contract when they didn't know what we know about the martial arts business.

And that upselling was probably done based on the parent's inexperience in MA, Contracts, and the Upselling as a marketing tactic....meaning the instructor misled the parents to pad his own pocket.

 

[terryl965]

Mbuzzy here is my point and believe me when I say my point: If I ever sign a four year contract with someone then I must have done my homework and figure I would be there that long. I have runned alot of personnal businesses to know how any budy with a five dollar atorney can wiggle out of them. To me Martial Art is more than training it is a way of life, to me and my family. So for meit is about integrity and forfilling my committment to the school, the students and the instructors. If something happen like being in a bad wreck or my instructor dieing then I would expect to be able to get out of it. This is why sometime my school has people and sometimes it does not have enough. But since I really do not do this to make a living things are different to me, sure we have a lease and utilities to pay, but when we made the move to here we knew we could afford it whether we had 25 or 100 students. We was and are willing to make the commitment to our school. I wish alot of schools would look at things beside the busines side of it but in reality most schools are there to help support the owners. I have no problem with people making a buck as long the students feel they are getting there money worth. I myself would never train with certain people but they have three hundred students ans they are happy being there not training and learning sub par S.D. principles. Well I guess I rambled enough and need to get back to topics. Contract are what each individual makes of them if you are not for them find a school that does not have them and if you like them find one that has them.

 

[Kacey]

If I were stupid enough to sign a contract that long term, then I would continue to pay it until I could legally get out of it; first, as Terry said, because I am ethically obligated by my sense of integrity to do so, and secondly, non-payment has too many costs that go beyond the monthly dues.

I once, when much younger, signed a contract with a gym, not realizing that renewal was automatic - and it took me over a year after the first "automatic" renewal to get them to drop it; it was a place that had a "joining" fee followed by a minimal annual membership - you paid around $2000 up front, and then your dues were guaranteed to remain $85 or so a year for life... plus cost-of-living/doing business increases. I paid it while I was fighting it - and then I spent over 10 years getting the "business" in question to quit sending me "are you sure you don't want to renew for this special price" notices, which finally worked when I had moved not 1, but 2 times.

Short-term contracts involving adults (up to 12 months) with an escape clause don't bother me (although I don't use them - I teach at a Y, and all of my students are month-to-month, as are all of the Y's classes) - but anything longer, or anything longer than 3-6 months for kids, depending on the age of the kid, says "watch out" to me.

 

[jks9199]

Mom signed the contract. Mom should've read the contract. If mom wanted out, mom should've contacted the school. Not try to send an email -- but phones, letters, etc. to show that she tried. 'Cause mom is probably still bound by the contract.

I bet with the press involved, the school lets mom out of the contract to avoid bad publicity. They shouldn't; they should stress that she had every opportunity to read the contract, and refuse to sign such a long contract. Who in hell expects a young kid to maintain interest for 4 years?!

 

[stickarts]

Most Hollywood marriages don’t last four years… and you want me to sign a multi-year agreement?
Are you a dojo or my mortgage company!?

Sorry for the venting – no not really.
Many states, because of documented abuses in the fitness industry, now have business laws protecting consumers against these multi-year package deals, especially the discounted pre-paid tuition plans.

Foremost, with a fitness gym you are buying (okay renting) the use of the facilities first, at a physical location and specified hours of operation, and maybe “some” instructional training/classes.

But in the martial arts you are PRIMARILY PAYING FOR INSTRUCTION within a specific methodology, which we call “a style”, often with an identified individual teacher you have chosen.

The physical facilities have always been secondary in martial arts - it’s the teacher and the style. As to my evidence - when the sensei/sifu/instructor ever leaves/dies/retires that school often closes its doors. It happens all the time.

What happens with pre-paid tuitions / auto EFTs if the gym or martial arts school closes?

What happens when you join & sign up for “a style” that over the years gets “modified/enhanced” by the school’s instructor, can I leave then with recourse?

Also what if significant personality/conceptual conflicts arise between teacher and student during the months of instruction – the relationship will/should end. Within a fitness gym who cares - as long as the machines are still there to do work-outs and the lights are on.

So over an extended time what if the dojo changes its days/hours of instruction? Monday & Wednesday evening classes were great for me, but now they are on Tuesdays & Thursdays and I cannot make it. But I still pay?

In our modern, mobile, uncertain American lifestyle - who really knows what we will be doing in one year from now?

I am talking about adults, never mind the uncertainty of having children as students.

Great points! Regarding your question what happens if the school closes: in Connecticut the school owners using contracts, and health club owners, pay an annual fee that goes into a fund which reimburses clients for money lost on memberships due to the school closing. As to the rest of your (very good!) points: those are risks that the students must weigh before signing a contract. If the school has been around a long time and has a great reputation then it may seem less risky then a new school or a school with a not so good reputation. Either way, 4 years would be too long of a committment for me to agree to or to offer at my school.
Thanks for the great reply!

 

[stickarts]

If I were stupid enough to sign a contract that long term, then I would continue to pay it until I could legally get out of it; first, as Terry said, because I am ethically obligated by my sense of integrity to do so, and secondly, non-payment has too many costs that go beyond the monthly dues.

I once, when much younger, signed a contract with a gym, not realizing that renewal was automatic - and it took me over a year after the first "automatic" renewal to get them to drop it; it was a place that had a "joining" fee followed by a minimal annual membership - you paid around $2000 up front, and then your dues were guaranteed to remain $85 or so a year for life... plus cost-of-living/doing business increases. I paid it while I was fighting it - and then I spent over 10 years getting the "business" in question to quit sending me "are you sure you don't want to renew for this special price" notices, which finally worked when I had moved not 1, but 2 times.

Short-term contracts involving adults (up to 12 months) with an escape clause don't bother me (although I don't use them - I teach at a Y, and all of my students are month-to-month, as are all of the Y's classes) - but anything longer, or anything longer than 3-6 months for kids, depending on the age of the kid, says "watch out" to me.

Thanks for the reply. Thats crazy that you had to go through all of that!

 

[stickarts]

Mom signed the contract. Mom should've read the contract. If mom wanted out, mom should've contacted the school. Not try to send an email -- but phones, letters, etc. to show that she tried. 'Cause mom is probably still bound by the contract.

I bet with the press involved, the school lets mom out of the contract to avoid bad publicity. They shouldn't; they should stress that she had every opportunity to read the contract, and refuse to sign such a long contract. Who in hell expects a young kid to maintain interest for 4 years?!

The article was in a prominent newspaper and I am sure that did give the mom lots of leverage. Tough spot for an owner to be in and I think he mostly handled it well all things considered. The end result will be going forward customers can get out of the contract if they aren't toally satisfied but to me, then why have a contract if you can leave at anytime anyway! There has to be some stipulations and some accountability or else just make it month to month pay as you go. I agree that 4 years is too long and it sets you up for some customer service issues down the road.

 

[MBuzzy]

Now, that is actually something that I would support. Not so much a "payment contract," as a "training contract." Basically a written agreement, signed by the student stating that they understand the rules, will do their best, follow the training, respect the leaders....stuff like that. Completely non-binding and with no "payoff period." Just a statement of intent to do your best and train well.