Would You Force Your Child to Study Karate?

[kaizasosei]

Convincing someone allows for time to understand fully. Solliciting pushes on and hustles the target into something without giving them any chance to understand the full scope or refuse. I think there is a huge difference.

I suppose one could say that if someone can controll a child perfectly with his/her will and sollicit basically any actions they desire the kid to do, then they would have no problems as parents. But that is not usually the case because kids are not stupid and if you mess around with their heads too much or be pushy, you're most likely in for some nasty surpises if not simple defiance and rebellion.

Of course, the younger they are the easier it is to push them around in this way. But there are natural instincts that make someone want to learn how to read and there are kids that love martial arts all on their own. I never had a parent that told me to do martial arts. My mom was cool though in buying me my first real sword when i was 13-as well as airguns.


j

 

[Omar B]

We force children to learn how to read, why is self defense an option. What is next, optional table manners?
Sean

Do you really force a child to read or is literacy apart of functioning in a modern society and is required to survive? Martial arts are not essential, nobody was ever denied a job, denied getting a driver's license, etc because they don't know the martial arts. It's nice to learn but at best it's a hobby.

There seems to be a gulf between what force is (compelling someone against their own rational self interest) and the way it's being used here as in something one learns to function in society. Parents teach table manners, they teach the child to read.

Force - physical coercion; violence; or control; constrain (oneself or someone) to do something

 

[seasoned]

Child rearing 101, present many options. Run with what sticks. Kids need to be well rounded in this day and age, some kind of sport, good grades, and some good old fashion soul searching. Forcing karate, no, the only thing I would force, is for them to get off their butts, and not just hang around. I did end up with the whole family in MA at one time, for 12 years. It was all done with encouragement.

 

[dancingalone]

There seems to be a gulf between what force is (compelling someone against their own rational self interest) and the way it's being used here as in something one learns to function in society. Parents teach table manners, they teach the child to read.

I'm not sure most on this thread use your definition of force. Right now I force my son to brush his teeth. If I don't he'll eventually develop cavities. As he gets older, I imagine I'll force him to go to his room at bedtime and leave the lights off at times. Or I will force him to do his homework from school even when he would rather play or watch TV.

I don't believe reason is an overriding factor for children. And as a parent, it's my job to teach my son to use reason and to follow rational self interest in an ethical manner, but until he can do that, I make the decisions for him.

 

[Omar B]

I'm not sure most on this thread use your definition of force. Right now I force my son to brush his teeth. If I don't he'll eventually develop cavities. As he gets older, I imagine I'll force him to go to his room at bedtime and leave the lights off at times. Or I will force him to do his homework from school even when he would rather play or watch TV.

I don't believe reason is an overriding factor for children. And as a parent, it's my job to teach my son to use reason and to follow rational self interest in an ethical manner, but until he can do that, I make the decisions for him.

Yes, but is that force or is that parenting? He may not know how to look out for his own rational self interest because he does not yet have the tools, but you do.

You don't force the child to go to school (it's so he'll learn which is for his own benefit), to have manners (he needs to deal with other people in society), to get his shots (to keep him alive), these are all parts of parenting. Force presumes one knows what is in their own self interest and is being compelled to act against it, while what you are doing is having him do what is in his own interest because he is not know the full extent of no doing so yet.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, but is that force or is that parenting? He may not know how to look out for his own rational self interest because he does not yet have the tools, but you do.

You don't force the child to go to school (it's so he'll learn which is for his own benefit), to have manners (he needs to deal with other people in society), to get his shots (to keep him alive), these are all parts of parenting. Force presumes one knows what is in their own self interest and is being compelled to act against it, while what you are doing is having him do what is in his own interest because he is not know the full extent of no doing so yet.

Well I can agree with that. I take it you would 'parent' your child into a karate class?

 

[CoryKS]

Yes, but is that force or is that parenting? He may not know how to look out for his own rational self interest because he does not yet have the tools, but you do.

You don't force the child to go to school (it's so he'll learn which is for his own benefit), to have manners (he needs to deal with other people in society), to get his shots (to keep him alive), these are all parts of parenting. Force presumes one knows what is in their own self interest and is being compelled to act against it, while what you are doing is having him do what is in his own interest because he is not know the full extent of no doing so yet.

Thank you, Ms. Rand. But whether something is in one's self-interest has no bearing on whether they are being forced to participate in it. Many people, and especially children, do not act in their self-interest. What makes it force is whether they must participate against their will. Yes, going to school is for his own benefit, but if he doesn't want to go then he is being forced.

 

[Omar B]

dancingalone - No, karate is not a requirement of living in society. Education is, interpersonal skills are (manners falls under this category), health is. Knowing how to lay someone out is not, as I said, it's nice to learn, but no necessary. If one were to couch karate in the area of interpersonal skills then sure, but the same can be said for team sports or boy scouts or chess club, etc.

The question is, what do you want your child to get from karate? To follow in your footsteps, to grow your own Lyoto? But as I said before, you are the parent, if you want him to learn then go for it because the child's too young to say no really.

 

[Omar B]

Thank you, Ms. Rand. But whether something is in one's self-interest has no bearing on whether they are being forced to participate in it. Many people, and especially children, do not act in their self-interest. What makes it force is whether they must participate against their will. Yes, going to school is for his own benefit, but if he doesn't want to go then he is being forced.

Did you just call me Ms? What the hell is that about?

Either way, as I said before, you as a parent act in the child's interest because they can't. School included. But what happens when the 18 year old does not want to go to college and has made that decisions?

 

[dancingalone]

dancingalone - No, karate is not a requirement of living in society. Education is, interpersonal skills are (manners falls under this category), health is. Knowing how to lay someone out is not, as I said, it's nice to learn, but no necessary. If one were to couch karate in the area of interpersonal skills then sure, but the same can be said for team sports or boy scouts or chess club, etc.

The question is, what do you want your child to get from karate? To follow in your footsteps, to grow your own Lyoto? But as I said before, you are the parent, if you want him to learn then go for it because the child's too young to say no really.

Really, it's quite simple - no moral philosophy needed. I want my son to learn to live a healthy, non-sedentary lifestyle. He should be no stranger to exercise. And he should be able to handle himself physically should someone try to prey upon him. If that means taking up boxing or karate or even cross-country running, I really don't care. As a karate-ka myself, I would naturally have a preference for karate since it is something I can help guide him in.

 

[CoryKS]

Did you just call me Ms? What the hell is that about?

Just meant that it was a very Randian viewpoint. Don't worry man, I know you're a dude.

Either way, as I said before, you as a parent act in the child's interest because they can't. School included. But what happens when the 18 year old does not want to go to college and has made that decisions?

Yeah, you're acting in the child's best interest. That doesn't mean you're not forcing them. But there are ways to present it to them, especially with younger kids, so that they embrace it easier.

Oh, and for the 18+ year olds we apparently have the Senate to decide what's best for them.

 

[Omar B]

Really, it's quite simple - no moral philosophy needed. I want my son to learn to live a healthy, non-sedentary lifestyle. He should be no stranger to exercise. And he should be able to handle himself physically should someone try to prey upon him. If that means taking up boxing or karate or even cross-country running, I really don't care. As a karate-ka myself, I would naturally have a preference for karate since it is something I can help guide him in.

We all want that for the kids man. If my father had it his way I would have been a Cricketer or Soccer player, it's what I "had" to do when I was not practicing karate or my guitar. When I was old enough to decide for myself I quit soccer and cricket, but from the age of 5 I wanted to do karate and I still do now.

 

[Omar B]

Just meant that it was a very Randian viewpoint. Don't worry man, I know you're a dude.
Yeah, you're acting in the child's best interest. That doesn't mean you're not forcing them. But there are ways to present it to them, especially with younger kids, so that they embrace it easier.
Oh, and for the 18+ year olds we apparently have the Senate to decide what's best for them.

Well I am an objectivist.

 

[kaizasosei]

Another extreme type of attitude is to prohibit the martial arts in hopes of sparking the child's interest. But i think that is stupid somehow and not valid in the modern age and i don't think a good parent would pull such a sneaky move unless they're one of those that hardly ever see their kids much..

on the other hand, have you seen the movie Lavitaebella? In that movie, the guy seriously bs his kid during the war, but it is done very lovingly. When sent to a concentration camp, he upholds a great farce of being in a giant game that requires all kinds of hard to explain actions.




j

 

[JohnASE]

Semantics aside, I think whether or not you need to "force" your kid to train will depend on the value you perceive in it and his need at the time. Most parents don't want their kids to learn to thump other kids. They want them to learn discipline, self worth, work ethic, or any number of other things that will help them deal with non-violent situations. If you think your kid is not learning these things in other ways and you think he needs to train despite his objections, you'll probably be right to force him. I'd bet this will happen way before 14 though.

One instructor recently told us that their teenager won't be allowed to drive until he/she achieves a certain rank. That's the way they chose for the kid to prove that he/she is ready to take on that responsibility. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[blindsage]

Thank you, Ms. Rand. But whether something is in one's self-interest has no bearing on whether they are being forced to participate in it. Many people, and especially children, do not act in their self-interest. What makes it force is whether they must participate against their will. Yes, going to school is for his own benefit, but if he doesn't want to go then he is being forced.

This is the definition of force. Rational self-interest has nothing to do with it. If the child doesn't want to do something, the parent forces them to do it anyway- chores, homework, manners, holding hands crossing the street, whatever.

 

[blindsage]

Would it have to be a MA? What if your kid found a passion for soccer and wanted to be on a travel team as a 10-11 yo? Let's say they wanted to be olympic or college scholarship level....
I use this as an example of a highly time intensive but great goal for a child to have that may preclude more than superficial MA practice. I went the other way... Quit volleyball to pursue MA.
(I guess that's what Sunday morning drills with Pop is for! )

There is flexibility in everything, but for me having my children train in MA isn't just about a personal passion, I wouldn't expect them to necessarily pursue it for life, it's about the specific life skills learned through MA training. It's especially important to me that any daughters I have do this. But, yes, of course if there is an obvious passion that develops for them in some other endeavor, there will be flexibility in this, to some degree. But as you talked about in another post, MA is a lifestyle for us, and it will be incorporated into our children's lives as a normal part of what we do from the time they are very young.

 

[blindsage]

Convincing someone allows for time to understand fully. Solliciting pushes on and hustles the target into something without giving them any chance to understand the full scope or refuse. I think there is a huge difference.

I suppose one could say that if someone can controll a child perfectly with his/her will and sollicit basically any actions they desire the kid to do, then they would have no problems as parents. But that is not usually the case because kids are not stupid and if you mess around with their heads too much or be pushy, you're most likely in for some nasty surpises if not simple defiance and rebellion.

Of course, the younger they are the easier it is to push them around in this way. But there are natural instincts that make someone want to learn how to read and there are kids that love martial arts all on their own. I never had a parent that told me to do martial arts. My mom was cool though in buying me my first real sword when i was 13-as well as airguns.


j

You can only try to 'convince' so far with children, and sometimes it is actually detrimental to take that approach. You have to have a balance between teaching your children how to make choices and have independent ideas while still setting firm healthy boundaries for them so they can have a safe, strong, supportive environment in which to learn and grow. Parenting requires parenting, not just the feel good part. Setting proper boundaries is light years away from pushing them around. Requiring children to do things that are in their best interests, regardless of whether they can understand it fully or not, is a major part of quality parenting.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Do you really force a child to read or is literacy apart of functioning in a modern society and is required to survive? Martial arts are not essential, nobody was ever denied a job, denied getting a driver's license, etc because they don't know the martial arts. It's nice to learn but at best it's a hobby.

There seems to be a gulf between what force is (compelling someone against their own rational self interest) and the way it's being used here as in something one learns to function in society. Parents teach table manners, they teach the child to read.

Force - physical coercion; violence; or control; constrain (oneself or someone) to do something

You have a better chance at getting certain jobs, and in some situations you do need self defense skills to survive. Cops usually suggest, at least, a boxing program for their sons that also want to be cops. Perhaps force is the wrong word, but kids will do what is expected of them. Perhaps you can make a deal such as equal video game time for hours of martial arts study. Its not a crime to restrict video game usage... yet.
Sean

 

[searcher]

Encourage them to try it out=YES.

Force them to do it=NO.

As My Wife andI are both instructors, I am hoping that they will want to when they are old enough, but I would not want to force the issue. Two if my Instructors did with their kids and it turned out horrible. Of all the kids from those 2, I am getting one of them to come to my school to train right now. It may work out in the end, but it is still early in the process.