Would you explain me?

[TimoS]

As I understand it however, it is generally accepted that Okinawan Kobudo Kata are much younger than Okinawan Karate kata.

I think it really depends on the kata. Some kobudo kata are probably quite old, some are quite new. As I've understood it, e.g. nunchaku kata are all new, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bo kata are old.
Kobudo as a separate system is much more recent, even more recent than the creation of karate ryu, but I think the actual kata were preserved by masters. Taira Shinken and Matayoshi Shinpo (or was it Shinko, I always confuse the father and the son) were the two (main) persons responsible for collecting all the various weapons kata under their systems from different masters. They also created new kata, but as I understand it, the core of their teachings was gathered from different masters. One master would know e.g. a bo kata, another might know a sai kata and so on.

 

[TimoS]

Yep, agreed with Bill there. From memory, the name change was in the early 1900's (the 20's or 30's, I think....).

The "official" name change was decided on in the 1936 meeting of karate masters, such as Kyan, Miyagi, Motobu and Chibana. You can read about it from here: http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/1936.html
However, the kanji for "empty hand" were already used in 1905, in a book by Hanashiro Chomo called "karate shoshu hen". This, to me, indicates that the meaning was already quite widely used even back then.

 

[Sojobo]

I think it really depends on the kata. Some kobudo kata are probably quite old, some are quite new. As I've understood it, e.g. nunchaku kata are all new, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bo kata are old.

Kobudo as a separate system is much more recent, even more recent than the creation of karate ryu, but I think the actual kata were preserved by masters. Taira Shinken and Matayoshi Shinpo (or was it Shinko, I always confuse the father and the son) were the two (main) persons responsible for collecting all the various weapons kata under their systems from different masters. They also created new kata, but as I understand it, the core of their teachings was gathered from different masters. One master would know e.g. a bo kata, another might know a sai kata and so on.

Hello,

Apologies for going a little off thread, but Okinawan Kobudo and its relationship to/with Okinawan Karate is subject that is of interest to me.

I have always been of the understanding that Karate developed ostensibly as an unarmed fighting / self defense system (its origins being in Okinawan grappling with Chinese ma influences). It makes sense of course that where you can fight with weapons your chances are increased, but predominantly Karate was/is pretty separate from Kobudo as a discipline.

It is interesting to compare this to the Japanese Koryu Bujutsu model.

In so called "Sogo Bujutsu" or comprehensive systems, weapon work (of various types) are taught alongside unarmed techniques (jujutsu), but it goes a little deeper than this, in that there was a common thread in terms of core principles that ran through the various facets of the school's curriculum - be that Kenjutsu or Jujutsu.

As well as Wado ryu Karate, I train with a group that studies Sosuishi ryu (Koryu Bujutsu). Its full name; "Sosuishi ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi no Mawari" is a reflection of this synthesis of weapon work along with jujutsu/grappling. "Kumi Uchi" meaning armed and unarmed grappling/jujutsu and "Koshi no Mawari" meaning "around the hip" (referring to the practice of weapons that are stored about your waist). The Kata trained in the Koryu (be that Iai, Kenjutsu or Jujutsu), are all home grown as I understand it, ie not bought in from other “specialist” Ryu.

In this case there is definitely a connection between the weapons trained and the hand to hand / grappling stuff - I am not sure this exists so much in the Okinawan Karate/Kobudo relationship, but I am open to being convinced.

Sojobo

 

[TimoS]

In this case there is definitely a connection between the weapons trained and the hand to hand / grappling stuff - I am not sure this exists so much in the Okinawan Karate/Kobudo relationship, but I am open to being convinced.

Yes, I'm aware of the Sogo bujutsu-concept in japanese koryu arts and in my opinion the relationship between karate and ryukyu kobudo isn't so strong. Like I said, Ryukyu kobudo is a much later amalgamation than karate. It used to be that the old masters knew maybe one or two weapons kata and maybe there was a stronger "sogo bujutsu"-like connection between their empty hand material and their weapons material, but that really is just a guess, because at least I haven't got the foggiest idea what kind of karate e.g. Tokumine had. He most likely had some, but I don't think he passed those skills onto anyone. We know he passed on some of his weapons skills.