Women of Kamatuuran

[tuturuhan]

The woman of Kamatuuran practice the deep, the dark and the hidden. They keep their knives hidden and their secrets...secret.

Gura (teacher) Michelle Bautista...and Gura Cathy Macay and Guro Felipe Macay performing in the SF Bay Area:

 

[tuturuhan]

I stress the difference in training:

1) Men begin with the long weapons, baston, double sticks, staff and proceed with a minimum of two years to the knife.

2) Women start with the short weapons, the knife, double daggars and procced to the long weapons

3) Men are trained to exhibit expression on their faces. In nature, it is the lion that shows his mane, the peacock that is colorful, the male birds that sing the prettiest of songs. This is natural observation. This is taoist training emphaziing the "white, the bright, the bold, the element of fire. This is the Yang.

4) Women are taught to show "no emotion" on their faces. They must go deep, dark and hidden. Their power is in "what you don't see". In nature, it is the impercepticle multitude of cycles. It is becoming attuned to those cycles and the power that is gleaned from them. This the taoist training emphazing the "black, the hidden, the deep, it's element is water. This is the Yang.

5) Kamatuuran means truth. We go about finding truth from two main pathways, the yang and the yin. This is taoism. This is sufism. This is the natural observation of Sir Isacc Newton.

6) When the male begins training with the knife and when the female begins her training with the staff, the paths cross. The two, black and white become 4, major yang, minor yang, major yin and minor yin.

7) In the beginning we do not emphasize ambidexterity. Instead, we allow the male/right hand to strike and the female/left hand to "be unseen" as she guides and directs without drawing any attention to herself. Strategy and communication and no emotion in battle are her strong suits. (In the video I have provided of Gura Michelle Bautista, you will be able to notice the traits stated above: no emotions on her face, the left hand in constant motion as it guides and directs the male/weapon in her hand. She is advanced in that she uses the 4. She can use both the small hidden weapons and now is using the long blade.)

8) As such, We all start our lives as female. The fetus at inception is female. It is not until hormone testostorone hits the fetus that males become males. As we get older past 30, testostorone decreases steadilly. Males lose much of their muscularity, speed and breath. (As such, we males have a choice, continue to full ourselves about our past skill and ability or embrace the Yin/female energy) Females, too go through a metamorphisis. Their bodies change shape, estogen decreases, their bodies become hardened. They have learned to exhibit the Yang. Both male and female have crossed paths creating the unity of the circle.

9) In the end, we are all the same. We all die. But, in nature, their is always rebirth. Where there is a begining there will always be an ending. Where there is an ending there will always be a beginning. The the sign of infinity and the double helix.

In my acceptance of death, I am poweful. I go to my death as a warrior.

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

 

[SFC JeffJ]

So, what you are saying is that you discriminate against both men and women in your teaching? Why is that? Can't either be trusted with the different weapons?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I dunno. I've seen it said that women are more agile but less physically strong than men, so focusing on weapons of agility initially would seem to build on existing strengths allowing one to become effective quicker than ignoring strengths to correct weaknesses would. A discussion I've had with my GF can be summarized as I can hit harder and absorb more, so you must hit me more often and with precision while evading my strikes. A biplane is a rather weak fighter, but enough hits from them can sink a battleship.

 

[shesulsa]

A biplane is a rather weak fighter, but enough hits from them can sink a battleship.

And those hits must be in the right place.

 

[tuturuhan]

So, what you are saying is that you discriminate against both men and women in your teaching? Why is that? Can't either be trusted with the different weapons?

Yes...we train differently.

 

[tuturuhan]

I dunno. I've seen it said that women are more agile but less physically strong than men, so focusing on weapons of agility initially would seem to build on existing strengths allowing one to become effective quicker than ignoring strengths to correct weaknesses would. A discussion I've had with my GF can be summarized as I can hit harder and absorb more, so you must hit me more often and with precision while evading my strikes. A biplane is a rather weak fighter, but enough hits from them can sink a battleship.

yes

 

[tuturuhan]

And those hits must be in the right place.

yes, the hits must be we with finesse rather than brute strength

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Is the reason you don't teach men because of the reasons that have been discussed earlier in this thread?


Or is it this:

Each of the physical characteristics affect how the knife fighter wields the knife. I don't allow men to use the "live blade" for at least two years. I teach women the blade almost immediately. Why? Because, a women can control her emotions. She knows how not to telegraph her movements

If it's the latter, I find it to be a rather insulting generalization. If it's what you said in your reply to Bob, wouldn't it be great training for the men to increase their finesse and accuracy?

Jeff

 

[tuturuhan]

I do teach men...in the beginning I teach them to be be fluid and continuous...but teach them to be quite male/percussive/yang. After age 35, I start to teach them the Yin/female/absorption.

But, our method is overall, very very tai chi/baqua like in movement and application.

 

[Ceicei]

Interesting. You have a very unique way of teaching method. However, wouldn't you find some males may be more "female-like" in behavior (control of emotions and finesse) and vice versa (some females with "male-like" behavior using brute force)? How would you handle these difference?

- Ceicei

 

[tuturuhan]

Is the reason you don't teach men because of the reasons that have been discussed earlier in this thread?


Enclosed is a group of men I taught at a Seminar in Rome, Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-YM5iinV6E&mode=related&search=

Please note, both the internal/female and external/male techniques. This is not new in thought. The Chinese and the Japanese, martial artists, regularly taught men and women differently...using yin/yang...and both genders learned from each other.

 

[Kacey]

Enclosed is a group of men I taught at a Seminar in Rome, Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-YM5iinV6E&mode=related&search=

Other than only having men in this clip, I fail to see how this demonstrates the differentiation you describe below and in other posts.

Please note, both the internal/female and external/male techniques. This is not new in thought. The Chinese and the Japanese, martial artists, regularly taught men and women differently...using yin/yang...and both genders learned from each other.

Simply because something is not new does not make it correct or appropriate; many concepts that have been taught for centuries have been disproven: the value in a patriarchal society, that bathing frequently will kill you, that bloodletting can save you by letting out the "ill humours" that cause illness, and many other age-old beliefs that have been disproven over the last century. In my opinion, saying that something is correct solely because it is "not new" is spurious and groundless.

 

[shesulsa]

tuturuhan -

Couldn't it be a mistake to assume that because someone is one gender that they will fight with gender-related energies and techniques? What about all the Kodokan Judoka who know Judo as "the gentle way" and some Aikidoka whose curriculum is based off of circular movements? There are linear, strong women who project and are emotional, then there are men who are just the same.

I wonder about your understanding of yin/yang, dark/light? Every male has yin and every female has yang, and everyone has different balances, no? For if one is all yin, she or he would be ill and out-of-balance; same with yang. We must have a balance, our organs which are related to the meridians and chakras must have the soft/hard, female/male balance, else they can receive damage.

Thoughts?

 

[tellner]

This is tough. I don't want to snipe or be mean. Your argument cries out for a response. There's no way to respond honestly without saying "I disagree strongly, and here's why." So with respect here are the major points of disagreement and the reasons for them:

I stress the difference in training:

Almost everything that is important in martial arts is the same for men and women. Structure, position, appreciation of distance, timing, precision, intention, sensitivity, willpower, lines of attack and defense, everything but a few particulars of body mechanics and some other odds and ends. Since the similarities far outweigh the differnces and the basics are identical why in the world would you stress the differences, especially from the very beginning?

Like my teacher, I try to stress good Silat with good attributes and strong fundamentals.

It would be great to think the best of you, but there's a hint of something familiar at work. Every single time I've seen an instructor "stress the difference" and give different curricula based on sex, race, religion, family or anything like that it means someone is getting the short end of the stick by design. It will often get dressed up in mystical language or something else cute and almost plausible. It would be nice to think you are different and that it doesn't all translate into "people who aren't like me get the Ol' Tentacle and not in a fun way." So far the odds are against it. And it makes no sense whatsoever for a member of whatever group has been designated as different to be the Japanese schoolgirl in that scene.

1) Men begin with the long weapons, baston, double sticks, staff and proceed with a minimum of two years to the knife.

2) Women start with the short weapons, the knife, double daggars and procced to the long weapons

Why? Nobody in the First World uses double sticks, staffs or spears in practical situations. Double knife is only slightly more likely than a Cubs/White Sox World Series. The only justification for teaching different weapons to people in the same class would be that the student has orders to ship out, has a specific acute self defense need or has just taken a law enforcement job and needs special skills quickly. In any of those cases the need of the student would, of course, take precedence over anything else.

If anything a wise teacher would start students on the weapons which will best correct deficiencies in the student's make up. Those who need coordination would do more with double weapons. Those who are weak would use slightly heavier weapons to help with strength. And while a woman's single arm may not be as strong as a man's both of them can hold their own against one of his, particularly with the mechanical advantages of a staff, kampilan or similar. By concentrating on short weapions she's exaggerating his advantages of size and reach rather than trying to neutralize or overcome them.

3) Men are trained to exhibit expression on their faces. In nature, it is the lion that shows his mane,
...
4) Women are taught to show "no emotion" on their faces. They must go deep, dark and hidden. Their power is in "what you don't see". In nature, it is the impercepticle multitude of cycles.

Ah, let's see. Men are free to express themselves and should be honest. Women should shut up and close down, drop their eyes, be duplicitous and not speak up. I was afraid it was something like that.

All the progress that women have made in the last couple hundred years has been a result of speaking up, being heard, and tossing away "female mystery" in favor of being taken seriously and treated as human beings, not walking egg-cozies. Every bit of progress the human race has made since we stopped living in trees and picking lice off each other has been a result of doing something un-natural. We use tools. We cook our food. We wear clothes. We build buildings. We read and write. Our young men mark territory by spray painting graffiti rather than urinating on trees. At least most of them do.

The lion shows his mane, and the peacock shows his tail so that he will get laid. The display is to impress females so that the females will express their choice or so that the males can compete with other males in ways that don't lead to actual bloodshed. When they are fighting for real - for food or survival - males and females do it the same way. Cats go for the bite to the back of the head. Dogs try for the throat or the hamstring. Snakes strike. Cattle charge. Horses kick.

If anything the training could well be the other way. It wouldn't do to be too stereotypical, but there are some patterns that are worth noticing. For the most part men already know how to be aggressive, to posture and woof, and to take up space. For the most part women are already good at hiding their realt thoughts and intentions. They get a lifetime of training at being small, not deferring, shutting up and keeping secrets. If the point of the exercise is to train people to be the best that they can it makes sense - once again - to have the women learn to be more assertive and the men (at least the young ones with more testosterone than myelin) to learn a little subtlety. If the goal is for the teacher to pat himself on the back about his mystical understanding of the universal subtleties, or is that subtle understanding of universal mysticism, by training students to fit his prejudices and then observing that they act differently then one would suppose the methods you are espousing would be perfect.

5) Kamatuuran means truth. We go about finding truth from two main pathways, the yang and the yin. This is taoism. This is sufism. This is the natural observation of Sir Isacc Newton.

My Taoism is old and sketchy, but the whole "What is stronger than water?" thing wouldn't seem to support your position. It certainly isn't Sufism as taught by my Shaykh or Tariqa or the teachings of other Tariqat or Pirs with which I am familiar. And it may have something to do with Newton's alchemical ravings. It has nothing to do with his mathematics or science. If you wish to go with magic rather than science feel free. Just be warned that alchemy went out of fashion about four hundred years ago.

7) In the beginning we do not emphasize ambidexterity. Instead, we allow the male/right hand to strike and the female/left hand to "be unseen" as she guides and directs without drawing any attention to herself. Strategy and communication and no emotion in battle are her strong suits.

Not a bad thing. It certainly takes less time to learn a motion on one side and then transfer it to the other than to try to learn both sides at once. But the left hand isn't female or the right hand male in any physical or biological sense. If anything being left-handed is statistically more a male trait. There are superstitions to that effect, but they usually add that the left hand is negative, unclean, and un-natural. Funny how being female is lumped in with that...

It also doesn't make much sense when one is talking about two handed weapons or double weapons. Or golf for that matter. Or for the left-handed.

8) As such, We all start our lives as female. The fetus at inception is female. It is not until hormone testostorone hits the fetus that males become males. As we get older past 30,

et cetera. It's not that men become female or women become male. More to the point, as they reach the end of their reproductive lives nature is finished with men and women. There's no more need to attract mates. The things that differentiate the sexes fade out.

 

[exile]

This is tough. I don't want to snipe or be mean. Your argument cries out for a response. There's no way to respond honestly without saying "I disagree strongly, and here's why." So with respect here are the major points of disagreement and the reasons for them:



Almost everything that is important in martial arts is the same for men and women. Structure, position, appreciation of distance, timing, precision, intention, sensitivity, willpower, lines of attack and defense, everything but a few particulars of body mechanics and some other odds and ends. Since the similarities far outweigh the differnces and the basics are identical why in the world would you stress the differences, especially from the very beginning?

Like my teacher, I try to stress good Silat with good attributes and strong fundamentals.

It would be great to think the best of you, but there's a hint of something familiar at work. Every single time I've seen an instructor "stress the difference" and give different curricula based on sex, race, religion, family or anything like that it means someone is getting the short end of the stick by design. It will often get dressed up in mystical language or something else cute and almost plausible. It would be nice to think you are different and that it doesn't all translate into "people who aren't like me get the Ol' Tentacle and not in a fun way." So far the odds are against it. And it makes no sense whatsoever for a member of whatever group has been designated as different to be the Japanese schoolgirl in that scene.

Why? Nobody in the First World uses double sticks, staffs or spears in practical situations. Double knife is only slightly more likely than a Cubs/White Sox World Series. The only justification for teaching different weapons to people in the same class would be that the student has orders to ship out, has a specific acute self defense need or has just taken a law enforcement job and needs special skills quickly. In any of those cases the need of the student would, of course, take precedence over anything else.

If anything a wise teacher would start students on the weapons which will best correct deficiencies in the student's make up. Those who need coordination would do more with double weapons. Those who are weak would use slightly heavier weapons to help with strength. And while a woman's single arm may not be as strong as a man's both of them can hold their own against one of his, particularly with the mechanical advantages of a staff, kampilan or similar. By concentrating on short weapions she's exaggerating his advantages of size and reach rather than trying to neutralize or overcome them.

Ah, let's see. Men are free to express themselves and should be honest. Women should shut up and close down, drop their eyes, be duplicitous and not speak up. I was afraid it was something like that.

All the progress that women have made in the last couple hundred years has been a result of speaking up, being heard, and tossing away "female mystery" in favor of being taken seriously and treated as human beings, not walking egg-cozies. Every bit of progress the human race has made since we stopped living in trees and picking lice off each other has been a result of doing something un-natural. We use tools. We cook our food. We wear clothes. We build buildings. We read and write. Our young men mark territory by spray painting graffiti rather than urinating on trees. At least most of them do.

The lion shows his mane, and the peacock shows his tail so that he will get laid. The display is to impress females so that the females will express their choice or so that the males can compete with other males in ways that don't lead to actual bloodshed. When they are fighting for real - for food or survival - males and females do it the same way. Cats go for the bite to the back of the head. Dogs try for the throat or the hamstring. Snakes strike. Cattle charge. Horses kick.

If anything the training could well be the other way. It wouldn't do to be too stereotypical, but there are some patterns that are worth noticing. For the most part men already know how to be aggressive, to posture and woof, and to take up space. For the most part women are already good at hiding their realt thoughts and intentions. They get a lifetime of training at being small, not deferring, shutting up and keeping secrets. If the point of the exercise is to train people to be the best that they can it makes sense - once again - to have the women learn to be more assertive and the men (at least the young ones with more testosterone than myelin) to learn a little subtlety. If the goal is for the teacher to pat himself on the back about his mystical understanding of the universal subtleties, or is that subtle understanding of universal mysticism, by training students to fit his prejudices and then observing that they act differently then one would suppose the methods you are espousing would be perfect.

My Taoism is old and sketchy, but the whole "What is stronger than water?" thing wouldn't seem to support your position. It certainly isn't Sufism as taught by my Shaykh or Tariqa or the teachings of other Tariqat or Pirs with which I am familiar. And it may have something to do with Newton's alchemical ravings. It has nothing to do with his mathematics or science. If you wish to go with magic rather than science feel free. Just be warned that alchemy went out of fashion about four hundred years ago.

Not a bad thing. It certainly takes less time to learn a motion on one side and then transfer it to the other than to try to learn both sides at once. But the left hand isn't female or the right hand male in any physical or biological sense. If anything being left-handed is statistically more a male trait. There are superstitions to that effect, but they usually add that the left hand is negative, unclean, and un-natural. Funny how being female is lumped in with that...

It also doesn't make much sense when one is talking about two handed weapons or double weapons. Or golf for that matter. Or for the left-handed.

et cetera. It's not that men become female or women become male. More to the point, as they reach the end of their reproductive lives nature is finished with men and women. There's no more need to attract mates. The things that differentiate the sexes fade out.

tellner—superb post... it hits the mark regardless of which MA you're doing. As soon as I refuel, you're getting rep for this...

 

[tuturuhan]

Interesting. You have a very unique way of teaching method. However, wouldn't you find some males may be more "female-like" in behavior (control of emotions and finesse) and vice versa (some females with "male-like" behavior using brute force)? How would you handle these difference?

- Ceicei

I do not have all the answers. Kamatuuran means truth. My teacher emphasized the idea of uncovering truth. A student who came to me from the wing chun style liked what I did so much he said the following, "I will go home and practice this technique every day, 500 times a day."

I responded, "How do you know you are doing the technique properly if you do it the same way each and every day 500 times.

We look to uncover, to hone, to challenge the techique. We look to uncove the concept, to test it, to repeat it looking for consistency in result. Then we hope to see something, behind what our teachers taught us.

As to your specific question, each individual is different. Yet, in general there are distinctions: up/down, in/out, male/female, etc. This is the the two that comes from the one tao. From the two comes the four. In this splitting of the cells, comes the 8 the 16, the 32, 64 etc. This provides the "range" of characteristics between male and female. This is the Tao.

As such, each of my students is different and each is there to teach me something different. Emotional and physcially they are all different and fit into the range. As such, instead of simply teaching a set of techniques, I look for the mutation. In the mutation we see the doorway to extending our technigue and concept. (In your original posting you were curious about the physic aspects...to see the mutations, one must develop the third eye.)

When one is faced with a "live knife", the consequences esculate the playing of the technique. It no longer becomes sport. Instead one now is faced the "thin veil of life and death". In doing so, everything in my life becomes connected. My beliefs in a Higher Power, my Family, my tribe and my clan.

Now, am I doing something different in how I train my students? No...I am simply attempting to uncover truth. I want to learn from my men in a concentrated way. I want to learn from my women in a concentrated way. I am looking for the mutations that will improve my fighting ability, my family, my tribe and clan.

Other traditions emphasizing "following the tao" in training:

1) Japanese: Naginata clases, have traditionally been all female classes. Thought the long weapon was originally taught to samuari.

2) Chinese: Wing Chun: In oral tradition was "originated and taught to women"

3) Educational Trends: Studies have indicated that young girls have increased their math skills by being in all female classes.

4) Neurological Studies: The latest brain studies show conclusively that the female brain is different then the male brain. The two hemispheres of the brain indicate a male and female perspective and fit the natural observations of the Tao.

The point, I am not teaching something new. I am learning new things. As such, I don't teach others for the sake of teaching. I teach to allow my students to "teach me".

Tuhan Joseph

 

[tuturuhan]

Other than only having men in this clip, I fail to see how this demonstrates the differentiation you describe below and in other posts.



Simply because something is not new does not make it correct or appropriate; many concepts that have been taught for centuries have been disproven: the value in a patriarchal society, that bathing frequently will kill you, that bloodletting can save you by letting out the "ill humours" that cause illness, and many other age-old beliefs that have been disproven over the last century. In my opinion, saying that something is correct solely because it is "not new" is spurious and groundless.

I disagree. I do not speak in terms of "right and wrong". I am a taoist, a natural observer. In science, one does not talk politics, religion or right or wrong. In science you only wish to uncover the truth. It has nothing to do with emotion or value judgments.

So, we can both disagree and have differing opinions...based on value judgments. But, the bottom line is always the "result" based on the natural observation.

 

[tuturuhan]

tuturuhan -

Couldn't it be a mistake to assume that because someone is one gender that they will fight with gender-related energies and techniques? What about all the Kodokan Judoka who know Judo as "the gentle way" and some Aikidoka whose curriculum is based off of circular movements? There are linear, strong women who project and are emotional, then there are men who are just the same.

Yes, I may be mistaken. I emphasize that I am a natural observer, a taoist. As such, we question everything...looking for constistency. We look for concepts, test them and then re-evaluate. For me, I attempt to hone my skills, not by memorizing the technique but by testing it for results.

Again, I emphasize, I may be mistaken and I don't have all the answers. I am simply trying to learn more.

I wonder about your understanding of yin/yang, dark/light? Every male has yin and every female has yang, and everyone has different balances, no? For if one is all yin, she or he would be ill and out-of-balance; same with yang. We must have a balance, our organs which are related to the meridians and chakras must have the soft/hard, female/male balance, else they can receive damage.

Thoughts?

Ahhh...everytime I teach a seminar in martial arts, feng shui or taoism I ask that question "What color or more accurate (lack of color or all colors in the frequency of white light) represents the female in taoist philosophy?

Most women in the room (And most of my feng shui, tai chi chuan, taoist classes are filled with women. Most men simply aren't interested in these types of classes) will answer "white". In western society, we assume that the woman is "bright and light". In taoism, the female is water, dark/black, deep, and hidden and the male is fire, brash/bold and white.

Perhaps, this may be a bit provocative...but, the female in nature is the deadliest of the species. The lioness and the she-wolf do most of the hunting. The black widow spider eats her male counter-part after mating. Studies, have proven that in terms, of survival, the female will kill her offspring to protect "the other eaglet, penguin, human child" if necessary to protect the survival of that "egg" that has a better chance of survival.

I emphasize, I don not have all the answers. Anyone, who is certain that they have the answers...is in my opinion...ignoring truth. So, yes, I may be and I am likely to be wrong on a lot of things.

 

[tuturuhan]

This is tough. I don't want to snipe or be mean. Your argument cries out for a response. There's no way to respond honestly without saying "I disagree strongly, and here's why." So with respect here are the major points of disagreement and the reasons for them:

This is a lot to reply to. I have attempted to simply state a position. This is the way I teach. Everyone, has an opinion. We disagree.

I am on this board to discuss. I don't expect you to "change your mind about your beliefs. I except your criticisms. But, I stand by my position. Thank you.