Women in the arts

Discussion in 'Women of the Martial Arts (Women Martial Artists)' started by WingChunChick, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. WingChunChick

    WingChunChick Yellow Belt

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    I've noticed that especially online like in everyday life men are everywhere and take up a lot of space in the martial arts community and in general. Most threads in this section are instantly jumped on and overrun by men.

    How does everyone else deal with practicing in a male dominated environment?
     
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  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    By not feeling 'dominated' for a start.
     
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  3. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Why does it matter what gender you are, here? All we can do here is exchange ideas. What you know well enough to discuss isn't affected by ones gender.
     
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  4. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Seriously? What is this the 1960s, they don't have to /deal/ with anything, they turn up and train the same as everyone else. Gender makes absolutely 0 difference in martial arts. Men don't treat women any differently. There's no prejudice or discrimination they just train.

    As for the forum. Are there more men on here maybe...but so what? You saying you'd rather not talk to men? Then maybe that's your issue because I have no problem talking to any woman on here and will talk to them the same as I would a man...frankly most people here I don't even know the gender unless it's ever specifically stated.

    Women don't have to deal with being in a more male environment and men don't have to deal with being in a female environment. It's such a stupid thing to even think about. I'll happily train with anyone. as long as they show respect to me I'll show respect to them it's as simple as that. Whoever you are man, woman, cat, dog, monkey whatever
     
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  5. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    It's extremely simple, you can't have equality of outcome. If there are more men in martial arts than women it's because more men choose to learn martial arts.

    Again, equality of outcome is an impossibility. More men respond on here than women for there are more male members. It's what they post in their comments, not what chromosomes they have or don't have.
     
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  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    First - do you know the difference between little boys and little girls?
    Little girls grow up to be charming women like yourself and my lovely wife.
    Little boys.....we just grow taller, we don't actually change or mature much. And every man knows this, they just won't admit it.

    I just yelled out your question to my wife. She said to "knock them the F out. They usually shut up then."
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  7. WingChunChick

    WingChunChick Yellow Belt

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    I could not have asked for a more perfect example of why this post was made than the responses I got.

    Why do you guys think there is a section of this forum called "women of the martial arts". It's so we can talk about the spesific issues we face while training. An example of that is being talked over when trying to discuss our own issues
     
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  8. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Well as you yourself said there's not as many women on here. So if only the women replied you wouldn't get many answers and frankly anyone has the right to answer anything they want to do. If I want to post something here I will just like if I post something for male users mainly I wouldn't get upset over women answering
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Nobody on here has "talked over" anybody. You've gotten a range of responses from the men, and one from a woman whose response was similar to some of the men. Do you know which is the woman? I'm guessing not, because you didn't acknowledge that one specifically, either.

    There does remain some gender difference in how people perceive and react to each other. Yep, even in martial arts. One issue I've run into is when women decide the only valid answers come from women. That's as bad as a man deciding only another man can give a valid answer. But beyond that, I don't see a lot of differential treatment. The women I've trained with were about as dedicated and capable as the men, on average. They had less physical muscle strength, as we'd expect, so they have to be more technically capable to be as effective.

    Now, if you have specific replies you don't agree with, this is a good time to make an argument as to why those posts are off-base in your opinion.
     
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  10. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Well as a man I find it totally distasteful and inappropriate, but I soldier on.

    My best training experiences were being invited to train with the women's boxing class at a local club back in my 20s.


    And yes I'm being facetious. :)
     
  11. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    Regardless of the category it's still a public forum.

    How do you talk over someone on a forum? Is your definition of "being talked over" is when someone gives a differing opinion from your own?
     
  12. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Personally I arrive at posts through the excellent "Recent posts" feature, rarely noticing which forum they are in.

    I think you are right about being talked over, but I also think it was a bit of a shock tactic post.

    Either way, I don't think there's much point to trying to elucidate your view. Not because there's anything wrong with it, but because I'm familiar with having to explain a position to a crowd that doesn't have to live in my shoes. It rarely goes well.
     
  13. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Lol JP buzzword alert!!
     
  14. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Victim mentality and martial arts are a terrible mix. You should probably choose just one.
     
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  15. Rat

    Rat Blue Belt

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    The same way i would need to deal with a largely female dominated area like Yoga,Pilates or a lot of the studio gym classes they offer. :p

    Also, funnily enough i went to a TKD class which had a Female teacher and the few students there were only female.
     
  16. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Buzzword alert no.2!
     
  17. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    She really got you guys good.

    The question was, "How do you deal with training in a male dominated environment?"

    We've had,
    "why does gender matter?"/"Victim mentality is incompatible with ma."
    "There's no prejudice or discrimination in ma, do you not want to talk to men, your question is stupid."
    "You can't have equality of outcome, more men choose ma, gender doesn't matter."

    Again the question was how do you deal with training in a guy heavy space.

    Nothing about sexism, nothing about gender being an issue or a factor in post quality or that only women had valid answers.

    I'm reminded of training karate as a fit 19yr old one summer and getting ogled by mum's when I stepped out of the changing room topless (not something I did often).

    A few weeks later being told that some parents were uncomfortable with me and my friend (same age more muscular) showing off our chests around their daughters.

    First and last time I was sexy enough for anyone to notice, it meant I had to be conscious of my gender and my behaviour (though I don't think any ofthe girls in the class noticed) in ways I'd never had to before.

    It's a pretty minor example but I imagine female students of ma might have to be conscious of such things far more than I ever was.

    That is just me guessing at the thread topic to show that this discussion might not be as threatening or politicalky minded as some here seem to think. Not being female I won't pretend to know what it's like to live or train as one.
     
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  18. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok I'll bite.

    I've worked all of my working life (which is long) in a environment which has always been 'male dominated'. I've trained martial arts for over 40 years. when I was at school the careers advice for girls was to work in a shop, as a secretary, nurse or teacher as you were going to be getting married and didn't need a career. Women were paid less than men for doing the same jobs, weren't given promotions etc etc etc. We fought then by breaking barriers, I had a military career and then went of to have another often considered a male one. I could do that because I had inspirational teachers who taught us we could do anything so we did.

    Things have improved immeasurably, some things still need addressing but on the whole what we work for now is equality for everyone, for example her in the UK we have leave for mothers and fathers at the birth of a baby ( that includes the adoption of a child as well). I do understand however than in some countries the quality of life for women isn't good, and in others women are now being seen as the 'enemy' by the powers that be. that is a situation that would a whole long post on it's own but may be mitigated in an up coming vote. I will come back to that though.

    So, men and women in martial arts. Are they treated the same, no they aren't. Are women held back and dismissed, no but many are treated differently.

    In some styles there has always been a lot of women training, TKD and karate come to mind. I've been told that in Kendo there is often more women than men training. In MMA not so many women train, in wrestling here in the UK hardly any women do but then hardly any men do either, it's not big here at all. We have probably equal numbers of men and women in Judo.

    The areas where women are treated differently are in sparring and in competitions, the latter are gender specific. In sparring though often the problem is when sparring with women men will often go 'lightly'. it is hard for men to go hard contact with a women ( don't forget we are talking martial arts here not outside the dojo), yes there are a few who will go full on but if you watch they tend to try that with all those they think they can do it and get away with. Instructors will nearly always deal with this problem by sparring with them themselves.

    The way to deal with being in an environment where you are in the minority ( doesn't just go for gender) is to be yourself, to treat everyone as a human being and be confident in yourself. Some people are just plain nasty, they are nasty not because they are male or female they are just nasty.

    I've had argument with males and females on this site. I will disagree and say so when I disagree with what someone has said on here. Many don't like it, well that's tough, there's an ignore button just for that. I say what I think regardless of the fact that there is only three or four women who post on here. Most of the arguments here are repetitive, ie 'BJJ and MMA is the only style that works, kata is useless, McDojos and Conor McGregor is the best thing since sliced bread'. That and on the CMA sites which to be fair have been quiet recently. We have arguments over whether you can train yourself and when someone posts a video up. There has been arguments about women's self defence, yes men post up things and women will disagree because like childbirth it's something men don't have the experience to know what it's like from a female perspective. We address this by explain, explain and explain.

    There is a climate in the US that many women are watching with increasing dismay, not just American women. Many people have seen that old white men from the Xtian far right are stirring up not just a gender war but a civil war, it's worrying from many people's perspectives. Increasing threats from 'groups' like the Incel movement ( one recently used a vehicle in Canada to kill people 8 women 2 men) and the curtailment of rights for women ( as well as minorities) is going to make many women very defensive.

    I can't say how I deal with problems training with men, I'm the senior instructor rather than a beginner. when I started I didn't have any specific problems that I remember, men tended to go soft and would fuss more if I go hurt sparring etc. but 40 years ago is, to paraphrase 'a different country'. The students I have are military, mostly men but they are used to working with women in very difficult circumstances ( they have all been deployed to war zone at some time), perhaps different from civvy training places but I also think the atmosphere in the UK as regards gender is probably different from that of the US at the moment.

    I just wanted to add that I brought up the political situation in the US because I believe it influences the comments of the OP. There is a combative atmosphere going on as I said at the moment that is hard to ignore.
     
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  19. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Click to expand before reading the rest.

    [RANT ON]Unfortunately, many people, like you, are imho, unable to make the distinction between those who use Christianity as an invisibility cloak for inappropriate or illegal action, those whose doctrine is not completely in accordance with the Old and New testaments of what Christians call the Bible, and those who always try to follow the precepts of what Christians call the Bible. There is a difference in beliefs.

    Any who wish to simply say they agree or disagree feel free to do so without explanation as far as I am concerned. However, I think any further comment that devolves against one religion or the other would be against forum rules and probably get the thread locked. And if I have crossed the bounds, moderators please delete this. Explanations and/or arguments should be in a separate thread in another forum. I simply wanted to point out that while I think Tez3's comments are generally correct and I am both offended and worried by some groups' actions as she is, I believe she inadvertently grabbed too big a brush to paint with.[/RANT OFF]
     
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  20. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Good grief.
     
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