Women and Grappling

[dredd]

There definately is a skill to weight ratio. If a person outweighs somebody significantly, the lighter person would have to have a lot more skill. When two people of the same skill levels are rolling around then weight must become a factor. Im guessing most rapists dont have too much experience in submission fighting though.

 

[JDenz]

Ya think being a good grappler would greatly help in a rape situation. just really defense, is all you need a rape has to be quick. If you can fight him off even a minute he will have to get out of there.

 

[Gary Crawford]

This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a seminar that Carlson Gracie Jr. was teaching.It was a two day seminar and the guy I worked with on the first day had to leave and I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!

 

[mj-hi-yah]

This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a seminar that Carlson Gracie Jr. was teaching.It was a two day seminar and the guy I worked with on the first day had to leave and I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!

LOL :lol: Gary the way you put that is soo funny. When I'm 62 I must remember to find a cute guy to grapple with! Hee Hee

 

[Brother John]

Just as practical as it is for men, no more, no less.

BINGO !!! ​

A "HUMAN" should be knowledgeable in ALL aspects of combat if she is to survive!!! IF it is a given that we don't choose the self-defense circumstance we may someday find ourselves in, then we also can't choose the parameters of that situation!! Grappling happens!!
If you are concerned that a man would have the upper-hand against you while grappling...perhaps.
But that upper hand would by tenfold if you have NO skill or ability in the grappling phase of combat.
Do it all.

Your Brother
John
PS: Besides, if you are talking about engaging in 'sport-grappling' my answer is the same. Since when should we limit ourselves according to what others may have the upper-hand in? If we do that we are ruled by our shortcomings.
Not a good way to live.
DIG in and enjoy!

 

[Feisty Mouse]

There seem to be three issues here:

1) the possible size advantage between two people engaged in grappling

2) the obvious sex bias this brings up, as most women are smaller and shorter than most men (although I have a few girl friends who are amazingly strong grapplers that surprise people)

3) the question about women training in grappling and their likelihood of being attacked and/or raped.

As for women, I believe grappling is the BEST self defense tool for them. Most attackers of women are would be rapists and the woman can defend herself with the man in her "guard" and every other position.

I agree, for the most part, with what has been said here - that women should train grappling to have all-around skills, just as men should. I also think that grappling in particular is a good self-defense tool. One thing that is not emphasized in grappling training, however, is what to do when someone gets your back. A large percentage of rapes (both "date rapes" and strangers attacking") are successful when the rapist can surprise a woman or somehow get her so she is face down on the floor. If people want to train women to deal with potential rapists, aside from the critical parts of training where (GROSS GENERALIZATION COMING!) women can learn to switch over their general urges to protect or value others above themselves, and attack BACK even when startled, then kickboxing, clinching, and grappling, with the attacker trying to get your back, should be trained.

Myself, it seems like women take to grappling pretty quickly, even when it's frustruating. It's nice to be able to use those strong legs and low center of mass!

 

[mj-hi-yah]

BINGO !!! ​

A "HUMAN" should be knowledgeable in ALL aspects of combat if she is to survive!!! IF it is a given that we don't choose the self-defense circumstance we may someday find ourselves in, then we also can't choose the parameters of that situation!! Grappling happens!!
If you are concerned that a man would have the upper-hand against you while grappling...perhaps.
But that upper hand would by tenfold if you have NO skill or ability in the grappling phase of combat.
Do it all.

Well said Brother John I found that to be true just recently :asian:

 

[Ceicei]

This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a seminar that Carlson Gracie Jr. was teaching.It was a two day seminar and the guy I worked with on the first day had to leave and I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!

Thanks for the laugh!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Did you have to :whip: fend her off?

That gives hope for when somebody turns 62.... :uhyeah:

- Ceicei

 

[Brother John]

I was left to train with whoever didn't have a partner,I ended up with this 62 yr old woman.When I went to get into her gaurd with her on the ground she said"Great!! it's been too long since I had a man between my legs!"Man! did I feel weird!She hit on me the whole time,not to mention how she was pulling me towards her instead what she was suppost to be doing.I almost asked her to pay me for working with her.I felt so cheap!

:boing2:
Geee Mrs. Kleaver...
you sure look lovely today!!!
:uhyeah:
Your Brother
John

 

[shesulsa]

I got myself into martial arts for self-defense - not to compete in tournaments, spar with every imaginable student, win trophies or lose and shame my teacher...none of that. I got into this to feel even a fraction safer than I did before. And I do.

I believe in loading up your personal arsenal with as much ammo as possible. The bad guys have guns and knives - do you? If you had one, would you know how to use it? Can you tell the difference between a semi-automatic and a full automatic?

Martial arts training is rampant as well. Lots of people play-wrestle, pseudo-grapple if they don't do it in a dojo/dojang. And they are prepared to fight quick - especially when it comes to wrestling. Think about it - they watch it...study it visually...goof around with it, try it out. So this is another weapon they have that you need.

Bottom line? Grapple, girl - OOPS! - I mean, Ma'am:ultracool. There is technique in grappling, too and if you have them in your guard, you are actually at an advantage...just look out for pokey things in that position. Pull one leg higher up (around his neck), pull an arm towards you, and squeeze your legs - choke 'em out!

...a rape has to be quick. If you can fight him off even a minute he will have to get out of there.

Actually, rape is a crime of power-over that involves the use of sex as a weapon. Rapists don't like to hurry - they will drag it out for as long as possible. Nowadays, they really like to kill the woman afterwards so she can't blab. Interestingly, most rapes occur between people who know each other, which doesn't work well for the victim in court. But that's a whole different topic.

 

[lvwhitebir]

Interestingly, most rapes occur between people who know each other, which doesn't work well for the victim in court. But that's a whole different topic.

Fortunately for the bad guy, less than 40% of the attacks are reported to the police. In one college campus study, less than 5% were reported.

WhiteBirch

 

[mj-hi-yah]

As for if its good for a woman to learn? Yes! Most of the time, the attacker is going to be trying to take her to the ground, and having the skills to defend herself, get back to her feet and run and very important. Keep in mind, in the street, there are no rules, so an eye gouge, rake to the face, fish hook, biting, spitting, hitting the groin, etc. are all legal.

I agree with everyone here that learning how to grapple is important. I also agree that in a "real" fight we should do all the things Mike describes above. In sparring in my school we rarely, if ever, go to the ground. I think it's important for women to grapple because in a defense against a rapist you will wind up on the ground. In sparring I can't really do what I would in the street as a woman, but I do find other options. In a real fight I would kick my attacker in the groin, in sparring I have to use my speed to evade and create other openings, as I can't really hit the guys in their groin. Is it the same or different for grappling? In training in grappling situations how as woman do we learn to grapple fairly with a 200+ pound training partner when we can't do the instinctual things we may need to do in reality to roll him over and get away? How do you train for reality without really hurting your partners? Can anyone give examples of grappling techniques that are specific to women or let's say a smaller opponent that helps gain leverage without hurting someone?

 

[lvwhitebir]

In a real fight I would kick my attacker in the groin, in sparring I have to use my speed to evade and create other openings, as I can't really hit the guys in their groin. Is it the same or different for grappling? In training in grappling situations how as woman do we learn to grapple fairly with a 200+ pound training partner when we can't do the instinctual things we may need to do in reality to roll him over and get away? How do you train for reality without really hurting your partners? Can anyone give examples of grappling techniques that are specific to women or let's say a smaller opponent that helps gain leverage without hurting someone?

Two things. First sparring and self-defense are related, but not the same thing. There are rules for sparring and not for self-defense. So you should train them both and understand the differences.

The same goes for grappling. Grappling is all about leverage and positioning. You should learn how to move into more favorable positions without having to use much strength. Therefore, a smaller person can out maneuver a larger person. Also, grappling can be practiced with more self-defense aspects or more sport aspects. You need to understand the difference. In a self-defense aspect, you can strike, kick, bite, gouge, grab, rip, tear, whatever in order to facilitate your escape. What training in grappling provides is the knowledge and practice of what really would work and what just gets you in more danger. You will react how you train. If you don't practice grappling skills, they won't be there to help you when you need them.

Here's an example from someone I see that doesn't practice any grappling skills. A 300lb rapist is sitting on your stomach. You push at his chest (you can't reach his face), striking it with your fists, to no avail. He grabs your wrists, taking even that away from you. He's practically laughing at you. You squirm and struggle but get no where. You burn a lot of energy trying futily to escape. Eventually he's got you. Some people have turned over onto their stomach, trying to deny that the guy is on them. Some have simply given up.

Here's a grappling example. A 300lb rapist (by the way, this is unrealistic because most attackers are 170lbs, your average guy) is sitting on your stomach. You know that you can't generate enough power from your back to really hurt him, so you don't try. You know that you're in almost the worst position possible (the only one worse is if he's on your back) and know that you *have to* improve your position if you have any chance to succeed. You can try to roll him over using an umpa (bridge and roll), but you probably won't succeed since you've practiced it a million times on someone his size. But, what you probably can do is what's called an elbow escape and get to a position where he's between your legs and your feet are gripping his hips (open guard). You know that this is an "even" position, where both of you have strikes and defenses available. You then straighten one leg, locking it out and sit up. He can't get closer to you because your leg keeps him away. You are free to use your hands to strike him (slaps for instance) and your free leg to kick him (stomp kicks). Once he backs away enough, you can use your speed to turn over into a sprinter's stride and bolt or what's called "standing in base", depending on where he's at.

I have practiced this, nearly full contact, in my self-defense course. I wore head gear and a chest protector. They whacked me good, but they learned what power they still possessed in that and several other positions.

I'm over 200lbs and have been "tapped out" by little 110lb women. One little slip and they can choke you until you pass out or break your arm off with a little push.

WhiteBirch

 

[mj-hi-yah]

The same goes for grappling. Grappling is all about leverage and positioning. You should learn how to move into more favorable positions without having to use much strength. Therefore, a smaller person can out maneuver a larger person. Also, grappling can be practiced with more self-defense aspects or more sport aspects. You need to understand the difference. In a self-defense aspect, you can strike, kick, bite, gouge, grab, rip, tear, whatever in order to facilitate your escape. What training in grappling provides is the knowledge and practice of what really would work and what just gets you in more danger. You will react how you train. If you don't practice grappling skills, they won't be there to help you when you need them.

Good ...thanks...

Here's an example from someone I see that doesn't practice any grappling skills. A 300lb rapist is sitting on your stomach. You push at his chest (you can't reach his face), striking it with your fists, to no avail. He grabs your wrists, taking even that away from you. He's practically laughing at you. You squirm and struggle but get no where. You burn a lot of energy trying futily to escape. Eventually he's got you. Some people have turned over onto their stomach, trying to deny that the guy is on them. Some have simply given up.

Similar to sparring, eventually wasted energy can lead to defeat...

Here's a grappling example. A 300lb rapist (by the way, this is unrealistic because most attackers are 170lbs, your average guy) is sitting on your stomach. You know that you can't generate enough power from your back to really hurt him, so you don't try. You know that you're in almost the worst position possible (the only one worse is if he's on your back) and know that you *have to* improve your position if you have any chance to succeed. You can try to roll him over using an umpa (bridge and roll), but you probably won't succeed since you've practiced it a million times on someone his size.

From the scenario here rolling him over sounds too late I can see that, but side note here it would seem to be advantageous to try that if you can before he gets you to the point where he is on your stomach. At what point are you considered to be grappling? Is it from the moment when you both hit the ground?

But, what you probably can do is what's called an elbow escape and get to a position where he's between your legs and your feet are gripping his hips (open guard). You know that this is an "even" position, where both of you have strikes and defenses available. You then straighten one leg, locking it out and sit up. He can't get closer to you because your leg keeps him away. You are free to use your hands to strike him (slaps for instance) and your free leg to kick him (stomp kicks). Once he backs away enough, you can use your speed to turn over into a sprinter's stride and bolt or what's called "standing in base", depending on where he's at.

Is this a move that involves "walking" your shoulder blades back? How are you using your elbows here? Aside from our SD techniques a long time ago in our women's class we did a "rape escape". At some point a rapist must let go of one of your arms to remove his pants or open his zipper in some way...we were taught to wait to try and make a move until then. Going with the scenario that the guy is on your stomach and your arms are pinned do you recommend waiting for that moment or do you think a woman should make a move sooner?

I have practiced this, nearly full contact, in my self-defense course. I wore head gear and a chest protector. They whacked me good, but they learned what power they still possessed in that and several other positions.

I'm over 200lbs and have been "tapped out" by little 110lb women. One little slip and they can choke you until you pass out or break your arm off with a little push.

WhiteBirch

VERY

Thanks WhiteBirch!

MJ

 

[Ceicei]

MJ, you asked "When does grappling start?"

There is both stand-up grappling and ground grappling, so to answer your question, grappling begins when both you and the rapist are in physical contact with each other, within grabbing range.

I've started cross training with judo (my primary art is kenpo). I have learned that judo is about balancing/counter-balancing. I also learned that judo is more about using skill in manuveuring than strength; using your opponent's moves against him--regardless if standing or on the ground. Whitebirch is correct: when grappling principles are understood and applied, it is possible to out-manuveur another person twice your weight.

- Ceicei

 

[mj-hi-yah]

MJ, you asked "When does grappling start?"

There is both stand-up grappling and ground grappling, so to answer your question, grappling begins when both you and the rapist are in physical contact with each other, within grabbing range.

I've started cross training with judo (my primary art is kenpo). I have learned that judo is about balancing/counter-balancing. I also learned that judo is more about using skill in manuveuring than strength; using your opponent's moves against him--regardless if standing or on the ground. Whitebirch is correct: when grappling principles are understood and applied, it is possible to out-manuveur another person twice your weight.

- Ceicei

Thanks for the answer Ceicei . Judo sounds like a nice compliment to Kenpo!

MJ

 

[hedgehogey]

From the scenario here rolling him over sounds too late I can see that, but side note here it would seem to be advantageous to try that if you can before he gets you to the point where he is on your stomach.

Not really. You should be using the guard to *prevent* him from mounting you.
And rolling (Umpa) can be useful vs. a large man. It depends on his balance.

At what point are you considered to be grappling? Is it from the moment when you both hit the ground?

Any time you are grabbed, you are grappling.

Is this a move that involves "walking" your shoulder blades back?

The shoulder blades aren't important. You're imitating the action of a shrimp by turning to one side and connecting your knee and elbow.

How are you using your elbows here?

To make space, you push his thigh back with your knee or elbow. Then you connect your knee and elbow through the gap.

Aside from our SD techniques a long time ago in our women's class we did a "rape escape". At some point a rapist must let go of one of your arms to remove his pants or open his zipper in some way...we were taught to wait to try and make a move until then.

Bad idea. He might punch or choke you first. Getting out of mount immediately is top priority.

Going with the scenario that the guy is on your stomach and your arms are pinned do you recommend waiting for that moment or do you think a woman should make a move sooner?

Start escaping immediately. All escapes in grappling work much better if used before the opponent is comfortable in his position.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

The shoulder blades aren't important. You're imitating the action of a shrimp by turning to one side and connecting your knee and elbow.

I usually eat them...I'll have to start watching them now! :uhyeah:

To make space, you push his thigh back with your knee or elbow. Then you connect your knee and elbow through the gap.

I can see using your elbow. If he's on your stomach how do you use your knee to create distance? When you say connect do you mean looping your arm around the back of your knee joint?

Bad idea. He might punch or choke you first. Getting out of mount immediately is top priority. Start escaping immediately. All escapes in grappling work much better if used before the opponent is comfortable in his position.

It seems to make sense...

Thanks,
MJ :asian:

 

[Ceicei]

I usually eat them...I'll have to start watching them now! :uhyeah:

Try flexing your finger. It kinda looks like that...

I can see using your elbow. If he's on your stomach how do you use your knee to create distance? When you say connect do you mean looping your arm around the back of your knee joint?

I believe he means that after you have pushed his thigh back with your knee or elbow, this creates just enough space under him for you to "shrimp". Shrimping means you get on your side and draw your own knees up to your elbows quickly to allow you to get out from under him.

- Ceicei

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Try flexing your finger. It kinda looks like that...

Look at that I'm a shrimp...

I believe he means that after you have pushed his thigh back with your knee or elbow just enough to allow more space for you to "shrimp". It means you get on your side and draw your own knees up to your elbows quickly to allow you to get out from under him.

- Ceicei

Ok got the shrimp imagery but how do you use your knee to move him back if he is on your stomach, and your knee is behind his back and below his legs?

Thanks,
MJ :asian: