Wing chun vs pro muay thai is this fight any good?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Victor Wang, Nov 1, 2020.

  1. Victor Wang

    Victor Wang White Belt

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    The wing chun guy surprised me!
    What do you guys think??

    Video link:



    KOD Championship is a hybrid fighting organization in Taiwan

    (The rule allows 10 seconds on the ground)
     
  2. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    10 seconds on the ground is a joke, thus this can't be taken seriously. I really don't understand the aversion of some promotions for ground fighting.

    Beyond that, I am happy to see Wing Chun exponents beginning to understand that they need western boxing and MMA concepts in order to be competitive. Of all Chinese MAs I expect to see modernize in the next few years, it's going to be Wing Chun.
     
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  3. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    I don't get your objection. Boxing and Muay Thai have 0 seconds of ground fighting. Are they a joke? 10 seconds to follow up on a throw seems a reasonable rule-set if you are trying to promote a standup art and still include sweeps and throws.
     
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  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    This is supposed to be a MMA match, not a boxing or kickboxing match. 10 seconds allowed on the ground for MMA is silly.
     
  5. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Oh no, someone else has different rules! This is going to bring anarchy to the world of martial arts!
     
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  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Sanda has 3 seconds clinching time. If you can't throw your opponent within 3 seconds, your throw won't get any point. Different sport has different ruleset.

    Sanda has already modernized. WC is not the 1st one.
     
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  7. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    There's this common conception that people who don't train sport arts don't know how to fight. This conception is based on a few assumptions:
    1. That lack of competition means lack of pressure-testing and live sparring
    2. That people who train in those non-sport arts only ever train that art in the way they think it is trained
    3. That all schools that teach that art train it in the way that they think it is trained
    While yes, a lot of Wing Chun fighters don't know how to fight, that doesn't mean that all Wing Chun fighters don't know how to fight. There's people who take pretty much every art that don't know how to fight, because they're a bad student, go to a bad school, or because they only know their art and are a fish out of water in standup or on the ground (depending on their art). It just may swing more in one direction if you don't have competitions, but that doesn't mean that Wing Chun can't be effective. Just means you need to be luckier with which school you go to.
     
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  8. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    That's kind of our rule when we spar in Hapkido. If you are unable to affect your opponent in a few seconds, then you've failed.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I like that 3 seconds clinching ruleset too. It can eliminate 2 person just dance around (avoid commitment). If you can't throw your opponent within 3 seconds, your throwing skill is no good.

    The same logic that on the ground, if you can't tape out your opponent within 10 seconds, your ground skill is no good.
     
  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yes, a very dumb ruleset that creates a rather dull fight.

    EDIT: Just read why the organizer decided on a 10 second ground fighting rule; He doesn't want BJJ or wrestling to dominate, and he doesn't want fighters to be forced to learn Bjj to fight (@13:09 mark in video below).



    Hilarious.

    Which is utter nonsense. The basis of ground fighting is control, then submission. Just because you don't have full control of someone in under ten seconds doesn't mean your ground skill is "no good".

    Again, I don't know what China's issue is with ground fighting, but they're going to produce a generation of fighters who aren't competitive in MMA if they don't get their act together. Sanda and Wushu simply isn't enough.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's bollux. There are plenty of situations where equally-skilled folks can stymie each other for a time. 3 seconds of not being able to throw your opponent doesn't mean your throwing skill sucks (unless pretty much everyone at the top of the Judo game is awful). Even more so with ground work. It's nice if you can end things quickly, but ground work tends to look more static, since there's not as much geographic movement (no footwork moving you around). It can take time to set thigns up against a skilled opponent. Heck, on the ground if things are safe (no other threats around), it can be much safer to take the slow control route even against someone who isn't skilled, as you can avoid giving as many openings and can wait for them to make the big mistake that lets you get to a quick ending.
     
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  12. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Wow. I can't think of a more stinging criticism of WC than your post above, @skribs. That's pretty harsh.
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    My personal opinion is that I think this is great, and I hope they do a lot more of this. I don't have a problem with a restrictive ruleset, as long as its testing the skills they want to test. If they're hoping to be well rounded, they should vary the rules, as well to add grappling, allow for different techniques.

    And, of course, they should be doing a lot of this. A lot. While even one experience like this will be great for the guys directly involved, individuals who compete regularly and under a variety of rules are going to be more experienced. That experience is invaluable to the individuals, and to a lesser extent, anyone who trains with that individual.
     
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  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is easier than adding head kicks on the ground.

     
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  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is interesting that ground rule though. They keep trying to consolidate their position before they do anything. And then time out before they can do any damage.
     
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  16. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    All that 10 seconds on a ground means is that the focus is on standup. The same (or more restrictive rules) exist in kyokushin, boxing, kickboxing and muay Thai. And the reason is pretty simple: the non-martial artist finds striking/throwing way more interesting to watch than ground grappling.
     
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  17. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I might have missed it since I don't speak mandarin. Where do they state it's an MMA match?
     
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    MMA’s popularity compared to kickboxing says otherwise. BJJ’s popularity says otherwise as well. The reality is that people prefer fights that are as close to actual fighting as possible. However, they don’t want fights where nothing is happening. Yeah, if they’re watching a match where two people are on the ground not doing anything, they’ll complain. However, fans also complain if two fighters are dancing around each other the entire time.

    Rhonda Rousey was extremely popular, and her entire style revolved around taking someone to the ground and arm-barring them. In a 10-second ground format, you wouldn’t get some of her greatest highlights.

    It’s in the video I posted where the guy talked to the owner of the promotion. It’s definitely MMA. The promoter wants to avoid wrestling and Bjj dominating, or fighters being forced to learn grappling to be competitive.

    That really says a lot.
     
  19. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    MMA is popular now. Boxing was popular for something like 100 years before MMA came about. The non-martial artists that I've asked about it have all stated that they get disinterested when fights go to the ground. Both men and women have told me that it looks like gay dudes humping each other, which obviously it isn't, but you can understand why a fight promoter/organizer may not want that. Either way, I don't think that limiting ground fighting because the organizers assume the public doesn't want to see it would invalidate the competition.
     
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  20. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    And Boxing is still very popular.


    Anecdotal evidence is the worst type of evidence.

    History has shown that MMA competitions that shy away from ground fighting simply don’t last. Also it simply looks bad, and it’s going to alter how fighters fight. For example, if you know you’re going to get stood up in 10 seconds, why engage in ground fighting or attempt to advance your position? Just turtle up and wait.123
     

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