Wing Chun vs Jeet Kune Do (I Am Bruce Lee Pt 2)

[kung fu fighter]

Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do was “chi sao without touching according to Dan inosanto. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-52TNb3yaVY

Dan Explained this starting at 2:48 into this clip

 

[Danny T]

Guro Dan is speaking about wing chun in Bruce's development and his personal JKD and that Bruce felt a limitation of wc in the longer ranges and that a different structure might work (in the longer range). What Guro Dan said: " So he (Bruce) had a system that worked on the outside that he could sort of hit and go.He developed a system he calls chi sao without touching; he started to put what worked for him and that became the structure of his personal Jeet Kune Do but wing chun is still the core he still started with that."

I believe what he is saying is that Bruce used many ways with WC being the core but in the outside range he used the system he developed and calls chi sao without touching. Not that Bruce's JKD was chi sao without touching though it was a part of it. It was the combination of things that worked for Bruce that became the structure of his personal JKD.

 

[Vajramusti]

Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do was “chi sao without touching according to Dan inosanto. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-52TNb3yaVY

Dan Explained this starting at 2:48 into this clip

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments FWIW. Bruce Lee was athletic and worked hard at it. What wing chun he knew made him more fluid than most of his karateka contemporaries.Inosanto is a good martial artist and teacher- however his understanding of wing chun is limited.
Bruce Lee did not know wing chun jong work....and what he shows is post facto jong work based on wing chun demos.
Bruce Lee's movies are still outstanding in the choreography of martial arts.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Guro Dan is speaking about wing chun in Bruce's development and his personal JKD and that Bruce felt a limitation of wc in the longer ranges and that a different structure might work (in the longer range). What Guro Dan said: " So he (Bruce) had a system that worked on the outside that he could sort of hit and go.He developed a system he calls chi sao without touching; he started to put what worked for him and that became the structure of his personal Jeet Kune Do but wing chun is still the core he still started with that."

I believe what he is saying is that Bruce used many ways with WC being the core but in the outside range he used the system he developed and calls chi sao without touching. Not that Bruce's JKD was chi sao without touching though it was a part of it. It was the combination of things that worked for Bruce that became the structure of his personal JKD.

In My opinion Ted Wong got Bruce's final refinement of JKD. here is what is meant by "in the outside range he used the system he developed and calls chi sao without touching."

 

[Danny T]

Ok, not sure what you are leading to.

What do these videos have to do with Inosanto's saying "So he (Bruce) had a system that worked on the outside that he could sort of hit and go.He developed a system he calls chi sao without touching; he started to put what worked for him and that became the structure of his personal Jeet Kune Do but wing chun is still the core he still started with that.", and your op stating, "Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do was "chi sao without touching according to Dan inosanto."

 

[KPM]

So yeah, Bruce Lee essentially used Western Boxing on the outside. No mystery there. "Chi Sau without touching" was just a metaphor, in my opinion.

 

[Danny T]

So yeah, Bruce Lee essentially used Western Boxing on the outside. No mystery there. "Chi Sau without touching" was just a metaphor, in my opinion.

Agreed, and the chi sau without touching was a tactic to create a reaction in the opponent give rise to an entry technique. Create a reaction and close the gap on that reaction.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Ok, not sure what you are leading to.

What do these videos have to do with Inosanto's saying "So he (Bruce) had a system that worked on the outside that he could sort of hit and go.He developed a system he calls chi sao without touching; he started to put what worked for him and that became the structure of his personal Jeet Kune Do but wing chun is still the core he still started with that.", and your op stating, "Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do was "chi sao without touching according to Dan inosanto."

The Videos i posted demonstrate the pinnacle of this hit and go system referred to as "Chi sao with touching" by Ted Wong's student. It's what's left after hacking away the unessential so to speak. it's simple, direct, and economical with the intention of interception. In my opinion JKD was the final result or conclusion of Bruce Lee's research into the various martial arts that he explored. I don't think Bruce's intention was to add more arts or techniques as some of his students continue to do today with the JKD concepts approach. He already did all the hard work for them by accumulating the material and then streamlining it to it's bare essentials.

So yeah, Bruce Lee essentially used Western Boxing on the outside. No mystery there. "Chi Sau without touching" was just a metaphor, in my opinion.

I agree! except I think it's a combination of western boxing and fencing. The wing chun ideas are only there in concept.

Agreed, and the chi sau without touching was a tactic to create a reaction in the opponent give rise to an entry technique. Create a reaction and close the gap on that reaction.

I agree! but also used to intercept by striking on the way as well.

From what i understand towards the end of his life Bruce Lee was phasing out the traditional wing chun aspects such as chi sao and trapping because he felt it wasn't as direct and economical as just hitting the opponent straight away by intercepting him.

 

[KPM]

I don't think Bruce's intention was to add more arts or techniques as some of his students continue to do today with the JKD concepts approach. He already did all the hard work for them by accumulating the material and then streamlining it to it's bare essentials.

----Yeah, I think this idea that Bruce Lee combined 20-something different styles in creating JKD is a load of crap.



I agree! except I think it's a combination of western boxing and fencing. The wing chun ideas are only there in concept.

---In some versions of JKD yes. In other versions no. Some JKD teachers still include the SLT from, Chi Sao, etc in their curriculum.



From what i understand towards the end of his life Bruce Lee was phasing out the traditional wing chun aspects such as chi sao and trapping because he felt it wasn't as direct and economical as just hitting the opponent straight away by intercepting him.

---You mean he was fighting more and more like a Western Boxer? ;-)

 

[Danny T]

The Videos i posted demonstrate the pinnacle of this hit and go system referred to as "Chi sao with touching" by Ted Wong's student. It's what's left after hacking away the unessential so to speak. it's simple, direct, and economical with the intention of interception. In my opinion JKD was the final result or conclusion of Bruce Lee's research into the various martial arts that he explored. I don't think Bruce's intention was to add more arts or techniques as some of his students continue to do today with the JKD concepts approach. He already did all the hard work for them by accumulating the material and then streamlining it to it's bare essentials.



I agree! except I think it's a combination of western boxing and fencing. The wing chun ideas are only there in concept.




I agree! but also used to intercept by striking on the way as well.

From what i understand towards the end of his life Bruce Lee was phasing out the traditional wing chun aspects such as chi sao and trapping because he felt it wasn't as direct and economical as just hitting the opponent straight away by intercepting him.

Yeah. I agree on it was the final result or conclusion of Bruce’s research into the various martial arts that he explored…, Because he passed away. His research for his ‘personal JKD’ concluded because of his death. He was still researching at the time of his death. Are you saying had he lived he would have done no more research? I believe his research would have continued.

Who are you referring to as adding to Bruce’s personal JKD?

No one can add to Bruce’s JKD or subtract from it; they can only add or subtract to their own personal JKD. Bruce said many times you must find your own way. You must find what works for you. Your personal JKD must have a core aspect and then you find works best for you. For instance, I am not Bruce Lee I do not have some of the attributes he had and I believe had he lived he would have continue to change because his attributes would have changed as he aged. He would have had to change what and how he did things. At 60 years of age there are many things I cannot do today that was simple when I was 30. Quickness is still there but overall speed is no where near what it was at 30. Bruce was just as human as we are he would have continued to change.


“He already did all the hard work for them by accumulating the material and then streamlining it to it’s bare essentials.”

He did it all the hard work for himself. Again he said many times in essence you have to do it yourself. ‘You have to find your own way’.


As to what Bruce added or subtracted in his training he also said to understand JKD you must know and understand Jun Fan. Once you know Jun Fan then you can learn JKD. I believe a lot of what he quit training was because he had already learned it and it was ingrained in him. The wing chun structure didn’t work for him at range and he had become so proficient vs most people he encounter he did what wc is all about; hitting, he simply hit them. There was no need for trapping because he simply was quicker. His teaching and instruction style was he showed to you a few times and if you didn’t get it he move on. It was up to you to learn it, to practice, to make it yours. It is also why so many of his second generation and now third and fourth generation can’t do what he did even though they attempt it.

JKD I believe is Bruce’s art and a way of training for the individual to learn what works best for them. It is not the same for everyone.


“From what i understand towards the end of his life Bruce Lee was phasing out the traditional wing chun aspects such as chi sao and trapping because he felt it wasn't as direct and economical as just hitting the opponent straight away by intercepting him.”

Here you help make the argument that Bruce was continuing to research and change. Of course his JKD research and changing stopped – he died.

 

[kung fu fighter]

----Yeah, I think this idea that Bruce Lee combined 20-something different styles in creating JKD is a load of crap.

Me too, I think he just came to the conclusion from his studies into the various martial arts that interception was the common theme amoungst them, and chose to focus on that aspect, thus the creation of JKD.

---In some versions of JKD yes. In other versions no. Some JKD teachers still include the SLT from, Chi Sao, etc in their curriculum.

You're correct, people like Jesse Glover and some of his earlier students still include the SLT from, Chi Sao, etc in their curriculum, however that was referred to as Jun Fan Gung fu, I was referring to his final evolution When he created JKD during the late 60's early 70's.

---You mean he was fighting more and more like a Western Boxer? ;-)

Yes along with fencing footwork and concepts of interception, simultaneous parrying & punching. After all boxing is just fencing with the fist if you go far back enough.;-)

Interesting read The Hidden Structure of JKD
"Bruce Lee wrote a letter in 1965 to his pupil James Lee, who was teaching for Bruce in Oakland, Calif., in which he states, "I'm having a gung-fu system drawn up. This system is a combination of chiefly wing chun, fencing and boxing. As for practice, I have other ways of training. I'll have them written down when it isfinished. Boy, it will be it!"

Are you saying had he lived he would have done no more research? I believe his research would have continued.

No, I am not saying that he would not have done more research, I am saying he had already figured out the basic foundational structure that he needed to use to build upon. "I don't believe in different ways of fighting now. I mean, unless human beings have 3 arms and 3 legs, then we will have a different way of fighting. But basically we all have two arms and two legs so that is why I believe there should be only one way of fighting and that is no way."

Who are you referring to as adding to Bruce’s personal JKD?

I think you missed my point, I wasn't referring to anyone adding to Bruce's personal JKD. I was referring specificly to the JKD concepts way of teaching vs teaching origional JKD structure like Bruce taught Ted Wong. I believe Origional JKD should be the core foundation for every JKD practioner to build upon or tweek based on their own abilities or attributes. Not to try and re-invent the wheel by practicing a bunch of different arts and apply JKD concepts to them. In My opinion Bruce already gave them the foundation basics and guiding principles to allow them to grow within the framework that he had already laid out.

Here is a similar situation "WSL used to say which is often misinterpreted is for one to be the master of VT and not its slave. He was referring to the strict elbow training we go through in development and to not think about it in fighting, but to fight mindlessly making the elbows work for us. Otherwise we are a slave to the system. People often take this out of context and use it as a license to do whatever they want and still call it WC, for lack of understanding the system."

There was no need for trapping because he simply was quicker.

in a street fight there is very little opportunity for trapping, the first person to land a telling blow usually is the victor.

 

[Danny T]

Me too, I think he just came to the conclusion from his studies into the various martial arts that interception was the common theme amoungst them, and chose to focus on that aspect, thus the creation of JKD.




You're correct, people like Jesse Glover and some of his earlier students still include the SLT from, Chi Sao, etc in their curriculum, however that was referred to as Jun Fan Gung fu, I was referring to his final evolution When he created JKD during the late 60's early 70's.




Yes along with fencing footwork and concepts of interception, simultaneous parrying & punching. After all boxing is just fencing with the fist if you go far back enough.;-)

Interesting read The Hidden Structure of JKD
"Bruce Lee wrote a letter in 1965 to his pupil James Lee, who was teaching for Bruce in Oakland, Calif., in which he states, "I'm having a gung-fu system drawn up. This system is a combination of chiefly wing chun, fencing and boxing. As for practice, I have other ways of training. I'll have them written down when it isfinished. Boy, it will be it!"






No, I am not saying that he would not have done more research, I am saying he had already figured out the basic foundational structure that he needed to use to build upon. "I don't believe in different ways of fighting now. I mean, unless human beings have 3 arms and 3 legs, then we will have a different way of fighting. But basically we all have two arms and two legs so that is why I believe there should be only one way of fighting and that is no way."


I think you missed my point, I wasn't referring to anyone adding to Bruce's personal JKD. I was referring specificly to the JKD concepts way of teaching vs teaching origional JKD structure like Bruce taught Ted Wong. I believe Origional JKD should be the core foundation for every JKD practioner to build upon or tweek based on their own abilities or attributes. Not to try and re-invent the wheel by practicing a bunch of different arts and apply JKD concepts to them. In My opinion Bruce already gave them the foundation basics and guiding principles to allow them to grow within the framework that he had already laid out.

Here is a similar situation "WSL used to say which is often misinterpreted is for one to be the master of VT and not its slave. He was referring to the strict elbow training we go through in development and to not think about it in fighting, but to fight mindlessly making the elbows work for us. Otherwise we are a slave to the system. People often take this out of context and use it as a license to do whatever they want and still call it WC, for lack of understanding the system."


in a street fight there is very little opportunity for trapping, the first person to land a telling blow usually is the victor.

What you stated:

- “In my opinion JKD was the final result or conclusion of Bruce Lee's research into the various martial arts that he explored.”
If JKD was the final result or conclusion of Bruce’s research and that Bruce's intention was to not add more arts or techniques as some of his students continue to do today with the JKD concepts approach then there would be no reason for Bruce to continue researching.???


Maybe I am confused by what Guro Dan teaches but everything I have learned from him as to JKD was JKD as Bruce had him teach it while he was alive.

At that time Bruce was researching kali and ground fighting as well several other arts but had not added them to his programs because he was still in research mode. Bruce told Dan to seek out and research Kali and the Indonesian arts, this he did.

How can one know what is best for them without studying and practicing it?


Everything I have been taught by Guro Dan has been Jun Fan as Jun Fan, JKD as JKD, Kali as Kali, Silat as Silat, Muay Thai as Muay Thai and not all of it combined as JKD. It is up to the individual to study, research, practice and fine out what is best for them and then remove what is useless for them. When he does mix or combine is some of the drills he states that is what he is doing and why. Many times it is because it is just good body mechanic drills with a powerful kick finish. He teaches out of both leads because some people are more powerful on the left side vs the rt. The teaching is for instructors to be able to teach their different students. Maybe some people are not aware of the method for instructors vs students. In his seminars he is teaching beginners to professors and everyone between. What he usually does not do explain in detail what the differences are. He leaves that to the student. He simply says ok we are going to do some JKD now or after doing JKD is say something like; “ok put your gloves and pads away and get two sticks for Kali. At least the has been my experience with him over the past 20 years.

The concept is once you know the system apply the JKD philosophy of training to what works for the individual. I believe the concept is to take what works for me if it be something in kali (after I really know it) and use it and the same to the other arts. Study, research, understand the principles the techniques work and if it is good for you Great! I have a bad left knee, badly damaged, I can not use the basic JKD bi jong structure so I footwork will be different, does that mean I can not use JKD. Of course not but someone who adheres to only the Original JKD would say I'm not doing JKD.

 

[kung fu fighter]

What you stated:
- “In my opinion JKD was the final result or conclusion of Bruce Lee's research into the various martial arts that he explored.”
If JKD was the final result or conclusion of Bruce’s research and that Bruce's intention was to not add more arts or techniques as some of his students continue to do today with the JKD concepts approach then there would be no reason for Bruce to continue researching.???

I think Bruce would have continued researching and kept an open mind by looking into other arts, perhaps not necessarily adding anything new to JKD since he did mentioned that he found the cause of his ignorance. But i am sure he would have kept up with cutting edge technology and research in athletic performance science. I definitely don't think he would have changed his JKD foundation basics though, but might have tweeked it here and there based on his experience.

Maybe I am confused by what Guro Dan teaches but everything I have learned from him as to JKD was JKD as Bruce had him teach it while he was alive.

At that time Bruce was researching kali and ground fighting as well several other arts but had not added them to his programs because he was still in research mode. Bruce told Dan to seek out and research Kali and the Indonesian arts, this he did.

I read somewhere that Bruce never believed that Kali was functional in a real fight because the training method was all pre-arranged. That would explain why he never incorporated it in JKD even though he learnt some Kali from Dan for his movies.

How can one know what is best for them without studying and practicing it?

Alot of traditional martial artist look at the JKD concepts philosophy as " jack or all trades, master of none".

Everything I have been taught by Guro Dan has been Jun Fan as Jun Fan, JKD as JKD, Kali as Kali, Silat as Silat, Muay Thai as Muay Thai and not all of it combined as JKD. It is up to the individual to study, research, practice and fine out what is best for them and then remove what is useless for them. When he does mix or combine is some of the drills he states that is what he is doing and why. Many times it is because it is just good body mechanic drills with a powerful kick finish. He teaches out of both leads because some people are more powerful on the left side vs the rt. The teaching is for instructors to be able to teach their different students. Maybe some people are not aware of the method for instructors vs students. In his seminars he is teaching beginners to professors and everyone between. What he usually does not do explain in detail what the differences are. He leaves that to the student. He simply says ok we are going to do some JKD now or after doing JKD is say something like; “ok put your gloves and pads away and get two sticks for Kali. At least the has been my experience with him over the past 20 years.
The concept is once you know the system apply the JKD philosophy of training to what works for the individual. I believe the concept is to take what works for me if it be something in kali (after I really know it) and use it and the same to the other arts. Study, research, understand the principles the techniques work and if it is good for you Great! I have a bad left knee, badly damaged, I can not use the basic JKD bi jong structure so I footwork will be different, does that mean I can not use JKD. Of course not but someone who adheres to only the Original JKD would say I'm not doing JKD.

My personal opinion is that Bruce trained his students in whatever skills he needed to practice against in order to develop his personal skills. so that he can have good training partners since he no longer had people to train with in America as he did in Hong Kong. This was the birth of the JKD concepts appraoch. So for example if he needed to work on his takedown defence, he would teach them good wrestling. Bruce kept true to the concepts of wing chun and used his students to create an environment that he could experiment in against different types of skills and opponents. Experimenting in this environment led to the birth of the style of jeet kune do.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Going back to the OP, I believe that his training was merely an extension of the Wing Chun Principles that were engrained in him. After all, what does it mean to maintain Wing Chun as a the core? It's not coincidence he found commonality within the boxing and fencing he implemented, in my humble opinion.

 

[Danny T]

Going back to the OP, I believe that his training was merely an extension of the Wing Chun Principles that were engrained in him. After all, what does it mean to maintain Wing Chun as a the core? It's not coincidence he found commonality within the boxing and fencing he implemented, in my humble opinion.

Yeap. So we are back to did he take wc out. No, it was a huge part of his JKD. Hip, immovable elbow, vertical fist structure, hand before body, simple and direct, economy of motion all = WC. He quit teaching a lot because he had it and like you stated before he used his students by teaching them what he need to work against.

 

[Danny T]

I think Bruce would have continued researching and kept an open mind by looking into other arts, perhaps not necessarily adding anything new to JKD since he did mentioned that he found the cause of his ignorance. .

I believe this is more about his mindset toward how he trained and how he utilized his attributes and skills in a physical conflict vs what he trained because he trained a lot of different things. He many not have use them but he knew about them.

I read somewhere that Bruce never believed that Kali was functional in a real fight because the training method was all pre-arranged.

That’s an interesting notion in that Jun Fan and JKD have prearranged sets of pad-work drills, kicking drills, footwork drills and other attribute development drills. Interesting notion.

Alot of traditional martial artist look at the JKD concepts philosophy as " jack or all trades, master of none".

So what. I don't train for their pleasure or appeasement. Do you?
I train for my pleasure and my skill and attribute development.

 

[KPM]

I've long maintained that if Bruce Lee was still around what he would be doing today would likely look more and more like the Wing Chun he started with. As Danny pointed out...as Bruce's natural attributes began to decline with age (as happens to us all) he would likely have brought back trapping and other things. As his ability to be faster than everyone else he encountered disappeared, he would likely have brought back the angling and position work of Wing Chun. And who knows? At the time of Bruce's death the west really didn't know all that much about the martial arts of SE Asia. Bruce might have ended up really having an affinity for one of the Silat styles that are based on leverage and positioning more than raw speed and power.

 

[kung fu fighter]

"Bruce Lee found it difficult to practice chi sao (sticking hands) with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar — the 7-foot-plus basketball star who, at the time, was the center for the University of California, Los Angeles. The length of his arms made him difficult to hit during prep for the film The Game of Death. Size was still too much of a factor.
He also found that although the sensitivity in the arms developed by wing chun training allowed him good defenses in close range, it did not completely eliminate the threat of being hit. He found, however, that staying outside the opponent’s effective range did eliminate that threat and that he could still hit the opponent because of his superior gap-bridging skills."

Bruce got the fighting measure from fencing.

 

[Danny T]

Just goes to show situations change what tactics are needed.

 

[Dinkydoo]

"Bruce Lee found it difficult to practice chi sao (sticking hands) with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar — the 7-foot-plus basketball star who, at the time, was the center for the University of California, Los Angeles. The length of his arms made him difficult to hit during prep for the film The Game of Death. Size was still too much of a factor.

Being around 5'7 I find it difficult practicing chi sao with anyone 6 foot plus. I find i have to use more tension than i'm comfortable with in my forearms to prevent my training partner from naturally trying to use thier reach advantage. I've found that a lot of people do this and to be frank, it really irritates me. In class we're trying to learn, it shouldn't always be a competition.

Edit: I realise that this doesnt contribute to the discussion going on in this thread - I responded as I skimmed through some of it. Its probably more appropriate in the small vs large discussion going on elsewhere!