Wing Chun styles you'd like to learn

Marnetmar

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Anyone have some WC styles other than your own you'd like to learn if only there were an opportunity?

I'd be super stoked to learn the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung style and possibly the Gu Lao village style. Learning the Wong Shun Leung style from someone like Phillip Bayer or David Petersen would be pretty awesome too.
 

wckf92

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I don't think I'd like to learn an entire different lineage...but I would be interested in interacting with / comparing / contrasting with the Yuen Kay San folks; Gu Lao; and Pan Nam perhaps.
 

geezer

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Same here, WCKF92. I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up.

I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version. It took years. Now I train with an old kung fu brother under LT who later learned with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. Now, teaching in his association, I had to re-learn his American variation of the German variation of LT's Hong Kong variation of Yip Man's lineage of WCK. That's more than enough for me!

On the other hand, I also work with the DTE guys who don't exactly teach Wing Chun, ...in fact they don't exactly teach techniques at all. They mostly just teach me how to apply what I already know more effectively through concepts and principles that align very nicely with WC. At my age, this is a much better use of my time than having to empy my cup and start over again learning "the true WC" of another lineage or branch.

The problem with just working out with and learning the different approaches of other lineages is the whole cult-like attitude that so many groups have. They don't believe in openly sharing, rather they jealously guard their branches "secrets". If they do work out with you, it's often only to prove that they are "right" and either convert or, at least, to humble you -- their opposition.

If WC is to succeed as a vital and effective fighting system we've got to get over ourselves and not be afraid to share, to learn from each other, address our weaknesses, and build on our strengths.
 

wckf92

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Same here, WCKF92. I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up..

Agreed. Have to many years invested in WC to begin 'again'...

I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version. It took years. Now I train with an old kung fu brother under LT who later learned with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. Now, teaching in his association, I had to re-learn his American variation of the German variation of LT's Hong Kong variation of Yip Man's lineage of WCK. That's more than enough for me!

Ha...sounds exhausting! I've crossed hands with practitioners from Moy Yat, Leung Sheung, Leung Ting, Ho Kam Ming lineages; and some miscellaneous WC'ers over the years. All quite different from each other.

On the other hand, I also work with the DTE guys who don't exactly teach Wing Chun, ...in fact they don't exactly teach techniques at all. They mostly just teach me how to apply what I already know more effectively through concepts and principles that align very nicely with WC. At my age, this is a much better use of my time than having to empy my cup and start over again learning "the true WC" of another lineage or branch.

Nice. Yeah I've compared/contrasted hands with Inayan Escrima and Pekiti Tersia. Overall they left a good impression. VERY skillful dudes! But I'll take the directness of WC over that any day.

The problem with just working out with and learning the different approaches of other lineages is the whole cult-like attitude that so many groups have. They don't believe in openly sharing, rather they jealously guard their branches "secrets". If they do work out with you, it's often only to prove that they are "right" and either convert or, at least, to humble you -- their opposition.

Yep...ego and pride...the two big culprits!

If WC is to succeed as a vital and effective fighting system we've got to get over ourselves and not be afraid to share, to learn from each other, address our weaknesses, and build on our strengths.

Agreed!
 

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Yeah I've compared/contrasted hands with Inayan Escrima and Pekiti Tersia. Overall they left a good impression. VERY skillful dudes! But I'll take the directness of WC over that any day.

Few other systems are as direct as WC. The "D" in DTE stands for direct. So it's definitely got the right idea. Like the Latosa Escima that is one of its sources, is also very physical... and often more "hard style" than the WT I trained. My own "PCE" system adopted by the NVTO is also a derivative of Latosa Escrima Concepts, but more influenced by WT/WC and is designed to transition seamlessly from weapons range and stances to WC empty hands and stances at close range. I'm no master like Rene Latosa (Latosa Concepts) or Martin Torres (DTE), but I'm good at integrating things and for a died in the wool WC fanatic, I'd match what we do in PCE against any other approach. For an MMA guy, DTE would be among the tops, ...Latosa ...well he's at a whole different level. And his "concepts" are very relevant regardless of "style".
 

KPM

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Well....since you ask! ;-) I've been very interested in the Pole method of Master Tang Yik for a long time. After all, he and his father before him were both widely known in Weng Chun and Wing Chun circles as the "King" of the Long Pole. I like learning new things, and just between you and me and the fence post....I've not been very impressed with the Ku Lo Pin Sun pole form or most of the Ip Man versions I have seen. But I have been very impressed by that classic footage of Tang Yik that has been floating around on the internet for awhile now. So I decided to pursue it! Derek Rozanski got me started with the Tang Yik pole basics and suggested that I contact Sifu Michael Tang in Hong Kong. He is the current head of the Tang Yik Weng Chun system. I was attracted by the pole, but the more I've looked into the Empty hand methods the more I like the whole thing! Tang Sifu has graciously accepted me as a "long-distance" student and has been helping me. I send him video and he gives me feedback. When I have questions we "message" back and forth with "whatsapp." I am planning a trip to Hong Kong to train with him directly sometime at the beginning of next year. He is very open and not secretive at all. Again...between you and me and the fence post....he is a breath of fresh air compared to some of the things I've come across in Ku Lo Pin Sun! ;-)
 

geezer

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Well....since you ask! ;-) I've been very interested in the Pole method of Master Tang Yik for a long time. After all, he and his father before him were both widely known in Weng Chun and Wing Chun circles as the "King" of the Long Pole.

Well, Ah tell ya what... you go to HK and get that Tang Yik Pole thing down, then come back and give seminars. It just might off-set the expense of your trip. I'd be interested.
 
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Argus

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Same here, WCKF92. I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up.

I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version. It took years. Now I train with an old kung fu brother under LT who later learned with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. Now, teaching in his association, I had to re-learn his American variation of the German variation of LT's Hong Kong variation of Yip Man's lineage of WCK. That's more than enough for me!

On the other hand, I also work with the DTE guys who don't exactly teach Wing Chun, ...in fact they don't exactly teach techniques at all. They mostly just teach me how to apply what I already know more effectively through concepts and principles that align very nicely with WC. At my age, this is a much better use of my time than having to empy my cup and start over again learning "the true WC" of another lineage or branch.

The problem with just working out with and learning the different approaches of other lineages is the whole cult-like attitude that so many groups have. They don't believe in openly sharing, rather they jealously guard their branches "secrets". If they do work out with you, it's often only to prove that they are "right" and either convert or, at least, to humble you -- their opposition.

If WC is to succeed as a vital and effective fighting system we've got to get over ourselves and not be afraid to share, to learn from each other, address our weaknesses, and build on our strengths.

This is perhaps the single biggest thing that bothers me about Wing Chun. To be honest, I'm more interested in discovering my Wing Chun - and practicing in a way that aligns with my understanding, rather than fitting some very particular mold of another practitioner who has, himself, adopted and adapted the system.

Now, that's not to say that one should think himself knowledgeable enough to "know what's best" and pick and choose what to listen to his teacher on, as that's recipe for disaster, or at very least, you'll miss a lot which any teacher has to offer with that attitude. But, I am also the kind of person who cannot subscribe to something without understanding it, and cannot refrain from questioning an examining everything from all sides. I believe that there are objective conclusions which we can arrive at in our training, and that everyone has holes and flaws in their practice.

For example, I trained with a group from the Leung Sheung lineage while on vacation. And, the teacher was quite good, and it goes without saying, far more experienced than myself. But I couldn't agree with how they practiced fook-sau in their forms -- the teacher actually corrected my fook, moving my wrist off of the centerline, putting the fingers there instead. Yet, the elbow was still tight in, angling the arm off-center. I cannot reconcile this approach with my understanding of the centerline. And, sure enough, as I rolled with his students in practice, I found them consistently open on the high inside line. Rolling with the teacher, however, I did not discover him to be open there, and so I figure that he managed to train around this apparent defect in his form. In essence, his practice does not align with his form. Now, if I trained with him, it may be possible for him to honestly convince me to change this about my practice, but I think the chances of this are very slim. Even if I remain open-minded and change my practice, if I still then find it deficient and inconsistent with my understanding of the centerline, what am I to do? Go on to teach others this "wrong" method one day? Or change my practice? And, if I opt to change my practice, am I still able to train in that lineage?

There are things that I would change in the lineages that I've practiced as well. For example, I previously practiced Ip Ching's lineage, and my teacher taught me to shift all of my weight to the "rear" foot in Chum Kiu -- even when only shifting 45, as opposed to 90 degrees. I practiced Chum Kiu this way for a long time -- particularly the Bong / Lan-sau section. And, in chisau, I found that I was consistently getting thrown off balance when shifting with bong-sau against energy coming in -- I was shifting too much weight in relation to how much I was angling off. So, I changed my practice such that I shift smoothly, and with a proportional amount of weight to my rear leg in relation to the amount off center that I turn - if I am square, in YJKYM, my weight is 50/50. If I am faced 45 degrees to the right, my weight is more 66/33, and if I am turned 90 degrees, it's most, or all weight on the rear leg. That way I don't over commit my balance when shifting by a small amount. And, after practicing that way, I no longer threw myself off-balance. Of course, the next time I would see my Sifu, he would correct me, and I would practice it his way in front of him. Was I being humble, or dishonest in doing so? Or, would it be dishonest to not change my practice to suit my understanding? As much as I tried the shifting 100/0 thing with bong-sau, I found that habit to be deficient and directly impact my performance in chisau. Perhaps I'm not able to separate in habit what I do in my forms versus what I do in application (though I don't think this is desirable), or perhaps this kind of deficiency is more evident for me personally as I'm very light weight and usually training with people who are half again or twice my weight. But in any case, while I tried to remain open-minded, I found that ultimately, I couldn't practice this way in accordance with my own experience and understanding.

The thing is, I'm not interested in learning to copy someone else's Wing Chun. I'm interested in expanding and refining my own understanding of Wing Chun. While I don't believe in adopting an incoherent mish-mash by picking and choosing what you like and dislike, I do believe that broad experience and exposure to different methods allows one to take a more examined look at their practice and understanding. And, ultimately, if I'm just going through the motions and doing things simply because I was told to do them, then I don't understand them to begin with -- it's only by discovering for myself their significance that they are worthwhile and productive. The worst thing that I can do is to start rationalizing why I do something, and making up reasons in the absence of understanding.

Anyway, sorry -- that's a bit of a long rant, and one that I'm sure is worthy of criticism :p

As for the OP's original question, though; if I had to choose one other lineage that I'd like to study, I'd have to pick the WSL lineage under David Peterson, or someone similar. I'm very impressed with the Wong Shun Leung lineage in general, and there's not much that I can find to criticize in their forms! :D
 
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Argus

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Well....since you ask! ;-) I've been very interested in the Pole method of Master Tang Yik for a long time. After all, he and his father before him were both widely known in Weng Chun and Wing Chun circles as the "King" of the Long Pole. I like learning new things, and just between you and me and the fence post....I've not been very impressed with the Ku Lo Pin Sun pole form or most of the Ip Man versions I have seen. But I have been very impressed by that classic footage of Tang Yik that has been floating around on the internet for awhile now. So I decided to pursue it! Derek Rozanski got me started with the Tang Yik pole basics and suggested that I contact Sifu Michael Tang in Hong Kong. He is the current head of the Tang Yik Weng Chun system. I was attracted by the pole, but the more I've looked into the Empty hand methods the more I like the whole thing! Tang Sifu has graciously accepted me as a "long-distance" student and has been helping me. I send him video and he gives me feedback. When I have questions we "message" back and forth with "whatsapp." I am planning a trip to Hong Kong to train with him directly sometime at the beginning of next year. He is very open and not secretive at all. Again...between you and me and the fence post....he is a breath of fresh air compared to some of the things I've come across in Ku Lo Pin Sun! ;-)

I'm also quite interested in the Tang Yik pole form! I have to say, I'm very impressed that you managed to track down that teacher and pursue training under him. That's commitment!

I'm kind of curious to see what their empty hands look like. Are there any publicly available video references?
 

Argus

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Well, Ah tell ya what... you go to HK and get that Tang Yik Pole thing down, then come back and give seminars. It just might off-set the expense of your trip. I'd be interested.

Same here! :D
 

KPM

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Here is Tang Sifu doing the 1st 4 sections out of 11 of the basic form. It is the Weng Chun equivalent of the Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao. It is simply called "Weng Chun Kuen"! He is going relatively slow because he was explaining things as he went rather than just demo'ing. I'm sure your first thought will be similar to mine..."this looks very Tai Chi like!" Tang Sifu has also studied Wu style Tai Chi. But when I asked him about this he said in the past Tang Yik Weng Chun was often referred to as the "Tai Chi of the South."

 

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Same here, WCKF92. I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up.

I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You were with LT for a while and legitimately can comment on LT. But here goes a small quibble. The Fong guy you refer to was not with Fong sifu long enough
to teach Fong's wc.
 

yak sao

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Well, Ah tell ya what... you go to HK and get that Tang Yik Pole thing down, then come back and give seminars. It just might off-set the expense of your trip. I'd be interested.

That is a fantastic idea.
I've watched that set many times on youtube. The pole set that I train certainly leaves a bit to be desired and have always wanted to learn the Tang Yik version.
 

yak sao

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I too would like to see the Ku Lo WC. By seeing how Leung Jan streamlined his method, I think it would help me distill down what I do.

Otherwise, I would stick to the lineage I train in,(WT) Not because I believe it to be necessarily the best WC out there, but I like it and it has served me well.

By having two different instructors of WT, one from the German method and one from the HK method, I've found that my WT has become a blend of the two. I would like to further this...once I hit the lottery, I would like to travel around and learn from the various WT instructors, Cheng Chun Fun, Carson Lau, Alex Richter, Norbert Maday, KK. LT, Sifu Geezer, etc.
Even though we all train the same lineage, there is much individual variation and much to be learned.
 
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Marnetmar

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For example, I trained with a group from the Leung Sheung lineage while on vacation. And, the teacher was quite good, and it goes without saying, far more experienced than myself. But I couldn't agree with how they practiced fook-sau in their forms -- the teacher actually corrected my fook, moving my wrist off of the centerline, putting the fingers there instead.

That's odd. I'm a Leung Sheung guy and we don't do that. It's objectively bad structure, as in addition to opening the center up it can be collapsed very easily as well. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that group :(

I too would like to see the Ku Lo WC. By seeing how Leung Jan streamlined his method, I think it would help me distill down what I do.

Otherwise, I would stick to the lineage I train in,(WT) Not because I believe it to be necessarily the best WC out there, but I like it and it has served me well.

By having two different instructors of WT, one from the German method and one from the HK method, I've found that my WT has become a blend of the two. I would like to further this...once I hit the lottery, I would like to travel around and learn from the various WT instructors, Cheng Chun Fun, Carson Lau, Alex Richter, Norbert Maday, KK. LT, Sifu Geezer, etc.
Even though we all train the same lineage, there is much individual variation and much to be learned.

What differences have you noticed between the German and HK versions if you don't mind me asking?
 
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Argus

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That's odd. I'm a Leung Sheung guy and we don't do that. It's objectively bad structure, as in addition to opening the center up it can be collapsed very easily as well. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that group :(

Not a bad experience! As I said, everyone has flaws in their practice. I'm sure his teacher taught him that way for whatever reason, and he's just doing what he learned. There's equally a lot of things that he did very well


Here is Tang Sifu doing the 1st 4 sections out of 11 of the basic form. It is the Weng Chun equivalent of the Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao. It is simply called "Weng Chun Kuen"! He is going relatively slow because he was explaining things as he went rather than just demo'ing. I'm sure your first thought will be similar to mine..."this looks very Tai Chi like!" Tang Sifu has also studied Wu style Tai Chi. But when I asked him about this he said in the past Tang Yik Weng Chun was often referred to as the "Tai Chi of the South."


Very interesting. It does look a lot like Tai Chi. Is it just me, though, or are his hands off-center in that form? It does remind me in a way of forms that I've seen in Hung-gar, or Sanchin from Okinawa, in that sense - though I don't presume there to be any relation.
 
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geezer

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...The Fong guy you refer to was not with Fong sifu long enough to teach Fong's wc.
Joy, I believe what you say to be true. But I was not commenting on the quality of his instruction and certainly do not intend to disparage Master Fong's teaching. My point is simply that when you change branches, typically you have to re-learn even fairly basic material.

In the case of switching from the Augustine Fong branch to the Leung Ting branch, I had to completely re-learn my stance weighting and turning. This was not too difficult for me since I was in my early 20s, still very inexperienced in WC, and I had not "hard wired" the Fong method into my muscle memory. It was, however, much more difficult for my former instructor to change, since regardless of his teaching qualifications, he had spent considerably more time training those movements.

I recall being several days into one of our training sessions when all the inexperienced students (including myself) had adapted to the LT method, but our former instructor was lagging behind ...and getting a lot of criticism from Leung Sifu for being unable to quickly unlearn his previous habits!

Now, at age 60, I have spent considerable time training the LT stances, steps, and so on. At this point it would be very hard for me to start over in another branch where my basics where considered "wrong".

BTW Joy, you know me well enough to know that I don't view the differences between our branches in terms of "right and wrong"! However in my experience many, perhaps even most WC people do view things that way. It's one of the reasons I spend more time on this forum where we seem to attract a higher percentage of open minded individuals. :)
 
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Argus

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Joy, I believe what you say to be true. But I was not commenting on the quality of his instruction and certainly do not intend to disparage Master Fong's teaching. My point is simply that when you change branches, typically you have to re-learn even fairly basic material.

In the case of switching from the Augustine Fong branch to the Leung Ting branch, I had to completely re-learn my stance weighting and turning. This was not too difficult for me since I was in my early 20s, still very inexperienced in WC, and I had not "hard wired" the Fong method into my muscle memory. It was, however, much more difficult for my former instructor to change, since regardless of his teaching qualifications, he had spent considerably more time training those movements.

I recall being several days into one of our training sessions when all the inexperienced students (including myself) had adapted to the LT method, but our former instructor was lagging behind ...and getting a lot of criticism from Leung Sifu for being unable to quickly unlearn his previous habits!

Now, at age 60, I have spent considerable time training the LT stances, steps, and so on. At this point it would be very hard for me to start over in another branch where my basics where considered "wrong".

BTW Joy, you know me well enough to know that I don't view the differences between our branches in terms of "right and wrong"! However in my experience many, perhaps even most WC people do view things that way. It's one of the reasons I spend more time on this forum where we seem to attract a higher percentage of open minded individuals. :)

Curious! Have you been able to train your Eskrima footwork such that it doesn't interfere with, or doesn't suffer from your WC footwork?

I'm having a bit of a tough time - when I practice WC more, my footwork in Eskrima becomes "corrupted," and when I spend more time practicing Eskrima, my WC footwork / stance becomes corrupted :p It seems like I'm constantly reprogramming / fixing these habits. Maybe given enough time and equal practice it'll cease to be an issue, though.
 

wckf92

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Curious! Have you been able to train your Eskrima footwork such that it doesn't interfere with, or doesn't suffer from your WC footwork?

I'm having a bit of a tough time - when I practice WC more, my footwork in Eskrima becomes "corrupted," and when I spend more time practicing Eskrima, my WC footwork / stance becomes corrupted :p It seems like I'm constantly reprogramming / fixing these habits. Maybe given enough time and equal practice it'll cease to be an issue, though.

Movement is movement... :D
 

geezer

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Curious! Have you been able to train your Eskrima footwork such that it doesn't interfere with, or doesn't suffer from your WC footwork?

I'm having a bit of a tough time - when I practice WC more, my footwork in Eskrima becomes "corrupted," and when I spend more time practicing Eskrima, my WC footwork / stance becomes corrupted :p It seems like I'm constantly reprogramming / fixing these habits. Maybe given enough time and equal practice it'll cease to be an issue, though.

I suppose it depends on the Eskrima or FMA that you do. In our PCE system we work mainly off the slightly front-weighted stance familiar to anyone training Latosa Escrima Concepts. It's similar to a JKD stance with the rear heel raised. I find that it's a very natural position to use at distance with a baston or other weapon, and it transitions very nicely to a back-weighted WC/WT stance as you close. Gotta run. PM me if you want to know more. -- Steve
 

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