Wing Chun Boxing

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by KPM, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    Your opponent is a moving object. To assume that your opponent will run into your punch is not realistic, you have to move forward and get him.

    static punch (back foot is not moving) < dynamic punch (back foot is moving)

    To achieve "back foot moving", you have to put weight on your leading leg.

    No shifting weight from back leg into leading leg -> no forward momentum in your punch -> limited power generation in your punch

    Distance is another issue.
     
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  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    You can punch when you sit on a wheelchair, but it doesn't mean anything. There are 2 issues here to consider.

    1. Power generation issue:

    If you don't have

    - body rotation,
    - forward momentum,

    where will your punching power come from?

    2. Distance issue:

    If your opponent is outside of your punching range, without stepping forward, how can your punch be able to land on him?
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
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  3. webmaster786

    webmaster786 White Belt

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    The Most common features of Wing Chun are trapping hands. This classical Wing Chun technique can be explained as the act of passing over and then trapping the arms of your attacker’s. This move involves an intensity of skill since you need to manipulate the attacker’s arms. That's why, Wing Chun trapping can be better powerful and comparatively effectual to a self defense fight than a boxing, kickboxing, or Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) match.
     
  4. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Forward intent and subsequent momentum comes from moving forward and is driven off the rear leg. Weight has to momentarily be on the front but the rear immediately is re-positioned but the body weight is not driven over the front foot. Torque is driven by the hip. (you say you have training WC so you should know this).
    Power is through muscle expansion or contraction, body displacement, and rotational force which is developed from training drills within SNT & Chum Kiu. (again if you have trained WC you would know this)

    If my opponent is outside my punching range punching is futile.
     
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  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    Do you have to step in to punch your opponent? When you step in, you either step in your

    - leading leg and your back leg follow, or
    - back leg and your leading leg advance, or
    - back leg in front of your leading leg (this will involve with switching sides).

    In all cases, you have to put weight on your leading foot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    But you are still going to need weight on that front foot when you connect or you will fall over.

    pretty sure you can't punch hard and lift that front foot to defend something at the same time. Even thai boxers don't do that.

    You do move and punch though?
     
  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    If you have a look at boxing and foot weight. You will generally find the hips are pretty centered. Most boxers are punching from the hip or the feet and using movement to generate power.



    You still have to be able to move that front foot. Or you can't move.
     
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  8. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    We are driving off the rear foot on contact. Because of the hip placement one can have 50/50 distribution or more to the rear usually 60/40 when in a lead.
    As I stated referring to WC: "Weight has to momentarily be on the front but the rear immediately is re-positioned but the body weight is not driven over the front foot." Unless Kicking or Kneeing with the rear.
     
  9. Martial D

    Martial D Black Belt

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    It doesn't really make a lot of sense I suppose to someone with no Wing Chun experience, mostly because the mechanics are very different to boxing, but you can actually generate a fair bit of power with that little straight punch. There are two ways that I know of.

    The first is to use your front leg to pull the back one. The weight remains on the back foot aside from a second where the front foot grips with the toe and pulls the body behind it as the back foot, and all of the body weight, come forward. Timing this forward shift with the punch does generate some serious power.

    The second way is to shift stance from one foot to the other, timing the punch with the rotational shift. This generates even more power.

    In both instances most of the weight is on the back foot on impact.
     
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    If you always punch when your weight is on your back foot, your reach will be limited. IMO, you should shift your body weight freely when you need.

    If we compare the stances that your punch can reach:

    1. empty stance - 0% weight on leading leg.
    2. 3-7 stance - 30% weight on leading leg.
    3. 4-6 stance - 40% weight on leading leg.
    4. horse stance - 50% weight on leading leg.
    5. bow-arrow stance - 70% weight on leading leg.
    6. monkey stance - 90% weight on leading leg.
    7. golden rooster stance - 100% weight on leading leg.

    empty stance < 3-7 stance < 4-6 stance < horse stance < bow-arrow stance < monkey stance < golden rooster stance
     
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    I had crossed trained the WC system not because it's power generation method but because it's "centerline" principle and "block and strike at the same time" principle.
     
  12. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Ok...that doesn't change how or why WC punches or drives off the rear.
    It does so due to the range WC is designed for not because some wants to do something else. If one is punching in the manner a boxer drives the weight over or some even drive past the front foot then one at that point not doing WC.
     
  13. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Not disagreeing. But then that isn't WC.
     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    I think WC should be your slave. WC should not be your master. Attitude such as: "If you do ..., you are not doing WC." is not proper. Since WC is only one of my cross training CMA styles, I won't let WC to put restriction on my "footwork - mobility".

    If your opponent moves back in fast speed, you will need fast footwork to hit him. To step your back leg in front of your front leg is a must.

    Here is an example. So this guy is not doing WC just because his back leg moved pass over his leading leg?

    IMO, the question should

    - not be "Is this guy doing WC?"
    - be "Should a WC guy move like this?"

    If the answer is no, then why not?



    I do think WC needs some "evolution".

    Among so may MA systems, By using the WC footwork to cover great distance is always a serious concern.

     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  15. wckf92

    wckf92 2nd Black Belt

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    If your opponent disengages, and is moving away from you, then, as a human...just walk or run after him.

    However, fast footwork ideas are in the weapons forms. ;)
     
  16. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    I agree John. But as Danny said, Wing Chun doesn't do that! That is one of the reasons why I like my Wing Chun -- Boxing cross-fertilization. Boxing is more flexible and versatile when it comes to punching and power generation.
     
  17. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    I agree!

     
  18. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Can't disagree from an individual perspective. WC is a training system with a specific methodology.
    The individual should always be adaptable to the situations without strict adherence to a particular method or way. That is why I train in multiple methods. But the discussion is, at that moment what one doing WC? I opine NO. Using something that isn't specifically WC isn't bad but that doesn't make it WC.

    What?? You think what he is doing is WC? It isn't. My statement doesn't mean he should not be doing so. That method worked for him at that moment...individual adaptability in the moment. But again that doesn't make it WC.
    Ok.

    "Is this guy doing WC?" I'm not asking if it is WC. You did.
    "Should a WC guy move like this?" The individual is always more important than a particular method. Use whatever is needed at the time it is needed. Adaptability is very important.

    WC has evolved but... When one changes the fundamentals of the system then it is not long the same system. WC the system doesn't need to evolve. The individual needs to evolve.

    In using the French term 'faux pax' within my discussion doesn't make the term English. Nor does it mean I'm speaking French. It is simply a French term I used. Does that mean English needs to change?
     
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  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Senior Master

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    We are still debating whether or not we should "keep WC pure".

    - In stead of thinking about "pure", why can't we think about "complete"?
    - Should we just act like a perfect "copy machine", or should we "contribute something into our MA system, so our next generation won't have to go through what we did"?

    A + B > A

    By adding something into a MA system won't change that MA system.

    For example, if you add the following "ground get back up" methods into the BJJ system, there is no way that it will hurt the BJJ system. It will only make the BJJ system more complete.



     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah this is kind of the issue. Who decides when something is no longer chun?

    Which has so far just been based on people just saying it is or isn't.
     
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