Wing Chun Boxing

[drop bear]

Yes looking at that video it is hard to see the distinction between that contest, a boxing contest, or an amateur MMA contest.

I mean except for the helmets and all.

At first I thought I was watching slap fights at a motorcycle rally LOL

Which is because different styles are a construct. We ultimately just make them up. We also just make up the difference between what is changeable and what is fixed.

So Chun doesnt do rotational punches. But can fight from guard. why?

Because we just decide it is the case.

 

[wayfaring]

Which is because different styles are a construct. We ultimately just make them up. We also just make up the difference between what is changeable and what is fixed.

So Chun doesnt do rotational punches. But can fight from guard. why?

Because we just decide it is the case.

That's a bit esoteric Plato's cave for me, but I guess yes all arts are a construct. But given that your ideas about the arts are a construct too.

So with all that in mind how exactly does Conor McGregor plan to beat up Floyd Mayweather here later this month?

 

[drop bear]

That's a bit esoteric Plato's cave for me, but I guess yes all arts are a construct. But given that your ideas about the arts are a construct too.

So with all that in mind how exactly does Conor McGregor plan to beat up Floyd Mayweather here later this month?

See esoteric for me is trying to come up with what is or isn't martial arts based on something other than cracking heads. Let alone who gets to decide. And more importantly who gets to decide for everyone else.

And Connor is going to loose.

 

[KPM]

Yes looking at that video it is hard to see the distinction between that contest, a boxing contest, or an amateur MMA contest.

I mean except for the helmets and all.

At first I thought I was watching slap fights at a motorcycle rally LOL

And this is where I'm coming from. Awhile back I took a good long look at all the footage of Wing Chun people sparring that I could find. A great majority of them end up abandoning the Wing Chun "engine" or biomechanic when under any real pressure and just resort to a pseudo-boxing engine by default. And since they don't really train to use that engine regularly, they don't do it very well! So my reasoning was this.....if most people resort to a boxing-like structure or engine under pressure either because it just feels more natural to them or because it is simply what works....then why not actually train to use that boxing engine well? But in using that boxing base, one doesn't have to necessarily abandon a lot of the Wing Chun concepts and basic techniques. Some here have tried to argue that Western Boxing and Wing Chun are incompatible. But that simply isn't true, and comes from people that are somewhat narrow-minded and haven't really tried to work them together. And besides....I've always loved both Wing Chun and Boxing. So I get to do both at once!

 

[geezer]

And this is where I'm coming from. Awhile back I took a good long look at all the footage of Wing Chun people sparring that I could find. A great majority of them end up abandoning the Wing Chun "engine" or biomechanic when under any real pressure and just resort to a pseudo-boxing engine by default. And since they don't really train to use that engine regularly, they don't do it very well! So my reasoning was this.....if most people resort to a boxing-like structure or engine under pressure either because it just feels more natural to them or because it is simply what works....then why not actually train to use that boxing engine well? But in using that boxing base, one doesn't have to necessarily abandon a lot of the Wing Chun concepts and basic techniques. Some here have tried to argue that Western Boxing and Wing Chun are incompatible. But that simply isn't true, and comes from people that are somewhat narrow-minded and haven't really tried to work them together. And besides....I've always loved both Wing Chun and Boxing. So I get to do both at once!

Let me be the first to say that you are totally wrong on so many levels. If only you had a deeper understanding of real, unbroken WC/VT/WT you would see this.

Now that that's out of the way, let me say a lot of WC people are coming to the same conclusion as you. And that's why your WC-boxing has a chance at working. IMO, developing an effective WC-boxing method will only work if a lot of people with differing points of view get on board, each working at trying to come up with a better mousetrap and then getting together to test what they are coming up with.

And when you look around, I think that's starting to happen. Whether it will go anywhere, remains to be seen.

 

[Phobius]

Let me be the first to say that you are totally wrong on so many levels. If only you had a deeper understanding of real, unbroken WC/VT/WT you would see this.

Now that that's out of the way, let me say a lot of WC people are coming to the same conclusion as you. And that's why your WC-boxing has a chance at working. IMO, developing an effective WC-boxing method will only work if a lot of people with differing points of view get on board, each working at trying to come up with a better mousetrap and then getting together to test what they are coming up with.

And when you look around, I think that's starting to happen. Whether it will go anywhere, remains to be seen.

Just keep some things in mind. Don't be a Wing Chun guy that think you know boxing from watching clips and trying to integrate to your training. Learn boxing and then integrate. Difference is same as a Wing Chun teacher introducing BJJ after watching clips on YouTube. Outcome may or may not become devastating to the students.

Understand also that evolution of boxing is here, and the sport makes it continue to evolve day by day.

Finally, not because it is a final point but rather my final in this message, gloves on or off. Do you train to fight with gloves or without them. It matters greatly. MMA gloves, bare knuckle or boxing gloves... it all has different mechanics.

 

[drop bear]

Just keep some things in mind. Don't be a Wing Chun guy that think you know boxing from watching clips and trying to integrate to your training. Learn boxing and then integrate. Difference is same as a Wing Chun teacher introducing BJJ after watching clips on YouTube. Outcome may or may not become devastating to the students.

Understand also that evolution of boxing is here, and the sport makes it continue to evolve day by day.

Finally, not because it is a final point but rather my final in this message, gloves on or off. Do you train to fight with gloves or without them. It matters greatly. MMA gloves, bare knuckle or boxing gloves... it all has different mechanics.

Slightly different. If you were going to compete it matters. If you are just using it for self defence. Good striking mechanics will take you a long way further than specific glove stuff.

As far as training goes you should probably spar in big gloves to get the concept of hitting hard and small ones for good defence.

 

[KPM]

Just keep some things in mind. Don't be a Wing Chun guy that think you know boxing from watching clips and trying to integrate to your training. Learn boxing and then integrate. Difference is same as a Wing Chun teacher introducing BJJ after watching clips on YouTube. Outcome may or may not become devastating to the students.

Understand also that evolution of boxing is here, and the sport makes it continue to evolve day by day.

Finally, not because it is a final point but rather my final in this message, gloves on or off. Do you train to fight with gloves or without them. It matters greatly. MMA gloves, bare knuckle or boxing gloves... it all has different mechanics.

Phobius, have you watched my videos?

 

[Phobius]

Slightly different. If you were going to compete it matters. If you are just using it for self defence. Good striking mechanics will take you a long way further than specific glove stuff.

As far as training goes you should probably spar in big gloves to get the concept of hitting hard and small ones for good defence.

Depends on what you mean with mechanics. I call guard/defense and aim as well as open VS closed fist, elbows etc as part of mechanics. Of course most things like power generation and structure remains the same.

Just saying there are fall pits that I sometimes hear where people think boxing gloves only is all you need for sparring to train survival in non competitive environment.

Just like there are fall pits no matter how small where you perhaps integrate boxing techniques and forget that it is the drills, the training that makes boxers vicious.

You want to train fighters so you add boxing techniques and then you do static drills and no combination training. Outcome will not be boxing and WC merged. It will just be different.

As for KPM i do not talk about him. There is no information about his classes so one must train with him to judge him.

You can for instance not learn BJJ by watching YouTube clips, create a form with movements and remove sparring. Even removing competition will remove whatever you do from following the same path. (once more this is not saying anything about KPM as only he and his students know what he does)

There are some boxers that moved over to WC but I just think the danger lies with having a guy know WC and joining classes thinking he can copy it to WC without understanding boxing in itself. (repeating this I know nothing about with KPM, just raising general points)

 

[Phobius]

Phobius, have you watched my videos?

Actually I have. It is interesting what you want to do. They also do not show whether or not my 'general points' apply to you or not nor does it matter.

Just have seen those guys that think boxing is something you can teach yourself. And yet they argue that you can not learn WC from YouTube nor can you understand it with just a few months training. How come they think it is OK to do the same themselves with boxing?

 

[wayfaring]

Depends on what you mean with mechanics. I call guard/defense and aim as well as open VS closed fist, elbows etc as part of mechanics. Of course most things like power generation and structure remains the same.

Just saying there are fall pits that I sometimes hear where people think boxing gloves only is all you need for sparring to train survival in non competitive environment.

Just like there are fall pits no matter how small where you perhaps integrate boxing techniques and forget that it is the drills, the training that makes boxers vicious.

You want to train fighters so you add boxing techniques and then you do static drills and no combination training. Outcome will not be boxing and WC merged. It will just be different.

As for KPM i do not talk about him. There is no information about his classes so one must train with him to judge him.

You can for instance not learn BJJ by watching YouTube clips, create a form with movements and remove sparring. Even removing competition will remove whatever you do from following the same path. (once more this is not saying anything about KPM as only he and his students know what he does)

There are some boxers that moved over to WC but I just think the danger lies with having a guy know WC and joining classes thinking he can copy it to WC without understanding boxing in itself. (repeating this I know nothing about with KPM, just raising general points)

This is funny, but I think all the concepts for me that are sorting themselves out in the grappling/striking mix I'm talking about on the other thread, for me they don't work for boxing. In my opinion the overlap of the arts is too great.

Boxing is built upon the jump rope and conditioning. IMO. One of my favorites, Vasil Lomachenko, looks like a jump rope expert in the Matrix. Movement based. Head movement based.

I just don't see wing chun concepts and energy working along the same lines there.

Maybe it's just me.

Thoughts?

 

[KPM]

Just put some more new lessons up! Here is one of them:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A great majority of them end up abandoning the Wing Chun "engine" ...

May be the WC "engine" is too difficult to develop. When was the last time that you have seen someone who used WC "inch punch" to knock his opponent down with gloves on? IMO, trying to generate maximum power without "body rotation" is not easy. When you want to knock your opponent down and your body rotation can add more power into your punch, it will be difficult for you not to "violate" the WC principle and apply the boxing principle instead.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually I have. It is interesting what you want to do. They also do not show whether or not my 'general points' apply to you or not nor does it matter.

Just have seen those guys that think boxing is something you can teach yourself. And yet they argue that you can not learn WC from YouTube nor can you understand it with just a few months training. How come they think it is OK to do the same themselves with boxing?

I think the difference is between teaching yourself something, and drawing influence/inspiration from something. I can't become a good boxer by using YouTube videos. But I can pick up some points of principle from them, and tinker with those to find some improvements in what I do. My end result won't be boxing (though it wouldn't be unreasonable to refer to the boxing principles), but it can be an effective approach if tested properly along the way.

 

[drop bear]

I thought some purists here always said Wing Chun didn't use hookpunches, what was I just watching in this video?
.

They do if they drop their elbow at the last second. Makes it a wing punch or something.

Of course if you drop your elbow you dont get your weight behind the punch so they dont actually do that either.

Or more importantly they just decide what is and isn't wing chun at the time depending on no real reasoning at all other than personal preference.

Which is how you are supposed to apply a martial art which is why it tends to work live.

But they also still have to keep up the facade of the system. So there is all this weirdness confusing logic and lying to themselves.

 

[anerlich]

To my mind there is little difference between the mechanics of a good hook punch and a decent bil jee elbow strike. At least from the shoulders down. I know the way those elbows strike are done varies across lineages, and this may not apply to everybody.

 

[KPM]

To my mind there is little difference between the mechanics of a good hook punch and a decent bil jee elbow strike. At least from the shoulders down. I know the way those elbows strike are done varies across lineages, and this may not apply to everybody.

I agree! I say that and demonstrate it in this video:

 

[wayfaring]

And this is where I'm coming from. Awhile back I took a good long look at all the footage of Wing Chun people sparring that I could find. A great majority of them end up abandoning the Wing Chun "engine" or biomechanic when under any real pressure and just resort to a pseudo-boxing engine by default. And since they don't really train to use that engine regularly, they don't do it very well! So my reasoning was this.....if most people resort to a boxing-like structure or engine under pressure either because it just feels more natural to them or because it is simply what works....then why not actually train to use that boxing engine well? But in using that boxing base, one doesn't have to necessarily abandon a lot of the Wing Chun concepts and basic techniques. Some here have tried to argue that Western Boxing and Wing Chun are incompatible. But that simply isn't true, and comes from people that are somewhat narrow-minded and haven't really tried to work them together. And besides....I've always loved both Wing Chun and Boxing. So I get to do both at once!

I get you. I don't think I would offer as strong an argument that they are incompatible. I actually have up until recently trained at a pro boxer's gym. So I've trained the boxer's stance, all the punches, the jump rope, bags, speed bags, conditioning - all of it. Their fighting and stance is based upon head movement at that gym going from front foot to back foot weighted. There is a huge amount of the lower body exposed. Love the workout you get with all of that movement. Great workout benefit. I haven't checked out all your videos on this yet but will get to them eventually. Have seen a couple.

More recently I have been focused on the wing chun body as a power generation engine, which is more compact. At least one video above talks a little about that I think.

I do keep up training at my friends MMA gym - he's more Dutch Muy Thai background. We discuss wing chun a lot and he teaches trapping to his gang. I'm always bringing the chun concepts into his gym LOL.

 

[KPM]

Just curious, what's Dutch Muay Thai? I'm dutch and we just call it Muay Thai

Not to speak for him, but I assume he means.....the Dutch have had a very strong Muay Thai presence for many years now. So much so that they have somewhat their own version or variant. For instance...the "dutch hand trap" is relatively common amongst the Dutch Muay Thai guys. This is smacking down the opponent's guard with a backhand motion followed immediately by a punch to the head with the other hand. Not unique to them....Vasyl Lamenchenko does it a lot as well.....but something that makes them a little different.

 

[drop bear]

Just curious, what's Dutch Muay Thai? I'm dutch and we just call it Muay Thai

It has more of a ckickboxing or boxing base. Thai has that hoppy front leg thing.