"Wing Chun" as an Adjective vs Noun

[lansao]

Hey everybody, hope this doesn't come across as heresy, but wanted to share a perspective I've more and more been leaning into. That is of treating the phrase "Wing Chun" as an adjective as in addition to as a noun. The way I've understood Wing Chun, and I believe many of you have too, is as a principle based art that selects for movement based on a set of criteria. If a movement meets that criteria, then it is Wing Chun. If it doesn't, then it's not.

This leads me to look at the phrase "Wing Chun" as a filter on movement (or adjective for movement) as well as the name of an art in an interchangeable way. You can watch a UFC fight, or boxing match, and if a movement follows the criteria, say something like "that was some good Wing Chun right there."

I feel like this is how Wing Chun stays fresh and the blades stay sharp. Improving the criteria over time to optimize for best performance. Eliminating movements that don't fit that criteria or train the right habits to support those movements. Assessing other arts for movements that can have Wing Chun principles applied to them and feeling comfortable adopting them into the art with proper attribution.

It's important to give credit where due in terms of where movement originated. For example, an arm bar from Jiu Jitsu, or a redirection from Aikido should have attribution so that when you're teaching it as part of Wing Chun, we know where it came from. But then, after applying WC principles, feel comfortable saying "this movement is Wing Chun."

Anyone else share this perspective?

 

[Danny T]

I think wc is a training system. The system is rather specific as to training structures, movements, and responses but at the same time isn’t specific to application of the above. Train the system, internalize the training, pressure test your ability to function with your skills that works for yourself. Don’t enslave yourself to the system.

 

[ShortBridge]

I get what you are saying and I've heard the term "Kung Fu" used that way, not just with fighting,but with...closing a sale or making a bowl of noodles.

It doesn't seem right to me, though to watch a boxing match and say "that was good Wing Chun". That person trained as a boxer, I don't want to take credit for their skill by associating it with what I do.

Wing Chun stays fresh because we train it and apply it, not because we try to make it something else. Conversely, I don't want to claim that other things are Wing Chun.

But I get what you're saying, even if I wouldn't say it.

 

[lansao]

I get what you are saying and I've heard the term "Kung Fu" used that way, not just with fighting,but with...closing a sale or making a bowl of noodles.

It doesn't seem right to me, though to watch a boxing match and say "that was good Wing Chun". That person trained as a boxer, I don't want to take credit for their skill by associating it with what I do.

Wing Chun stays fresh because we train it and apply it, not because we try to make it something else. Conversely, I don't want to claim that other things are Wing Chun.

But I get what you're saying, even if I wouldn't say it.

That makes sense. I don’t mean for this to mean we take credit for other arts’ work. I just feel that we should be free to advance the art with contributions from other systems, give them attribution to their source, apply Wing Chun principles, and add them to the system. Not about taking credit at all, but about updating the central library with findings from our environment.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That makes sense. I don’t mean for this to mean we take credit for other arts’ work. I just feel that we should be free to advance the art with contributions from other systems, give them attribution to their source, apply Wing Chun principles, and add them to the system. Not about taking credit at all, but about updating the central library with findings from our environment.

Then that, IMHO, becomes something else....see Jeet Kune Do for example

 

[lansao]

Then that, IMHO, becomes something else....see Jeet Kune Do for example

I struggle with that. Didn’t the art originate from a combination of “what worked” from several arts of the day?

 

[PiedmontChun]

That makes sense. I don’t mean for this to mean we take credit for other arts’ work. I just feel that we should be free to advance the art with contributions from other systems, give them attribution to their source, apply Wing Chun principles, and add them to the system. Not about taking credit at all, but about updating the central library with findings from our environment.

Eh, that sounds like a very eclectic Wing Chun approach though honestly. I am reminded of some of the WSL guys who used to frequent this forum who used to espouse their philosophy that (and I am generously paraphrasing here) - WC/VT is a very specific tool, and should remain so, not have lots of things added to it and overcomplicate it. It was a very narrow view but I had a hard time disagreeing with them. WC/VT/WT is a very specific way of fighting, like a very sharp knife which can cut many ways, not a jumbo swiss army knife.

People will always be eclectic in how they fight, incorporating anything and everything they have learned, but if Wing Chun is a coherent system, seems like it makes sense to leave it that way.

I think I will agree with you that Wing Chun can spill over into regular (i.e. non-fighting) life though. Important maxims like "When the way is clear, move forward" and "If you meet a greater force, give way". Can't count how many times those reminders have come to mind in situations that had absolutely nothing to do with physical fighting.

 

[lansao]

Eh, that sounds like a very eclectic Wing Chun approach though honestly. I am reminded of some of the WSL guys who used to frequent this forum who used to espouse their philosophy that (and I am generously paraphrasing here) - WC/VT is a very specific tool, and should remain so, not have lots of things added to it and overcomplicate it. It was a very narrow view but I had a hard time disagreeing with them. WC/VT/WT is a very specific way of fighting, like a very sharp knife which can cut many ways, not a jumbo swiss army knife.

People will always be eclectic in how they fight, incorporating anything and everything they have learned, but if Wing Chun is a coherent system, seems like it makes sense to leave it that way.

I think I will agree with you that Wing Chun can spill over into regular (i.e. non-fighting) life though. Important maxims like "When the way is clear, move forward" and "If you meet a greater force, give way". Can't count how many times those reminders have come to mind in situations that had absolutely nothing to do with physical fighting.

That makes sense, don’t mean to stir the pot. Just wanted to be able to share philosophical thoughts on the art. Engage in dialogue over this stuff.

I struggle a bit with the narrow sliver too. Should the narrow sliver stay the same forever? What were the assumptions upon which the narrow sliver was originally designed? Should those assumptions be challenged regularly? Can we source challenges to our assumptions by testing them against different arts of our day? If as a result of this testing, should an assumption change, should we update the design?

These are the kinds of questions I find myself asking. Can we learn from geometry, calculus, musical rhythm notation? Things like the deflective properties of cubic diagonals I know are useful in at least how I practice (and I imagine the way others here practice as well).

Sorry for rambling but figure this is a good space to talk through these thoughts with other practitioners.

 

[geezer]

Back in the 80s our local clique of young WT enthusiasts would use "Wing Tsun" as an adjective when hanging out together. Our sifu had told us that conceptually, Wing Tsun went way beyond fighting, that anytime you confront a challenging obstacle or situation, use WT ...that is, use efficiency, be flexible, and deflect the problem, or better yet, borrow the force and turn it to your advantage.

So, in our crowd you'd hear statements like, "My boss was being a total jerk and wanted me to work overtime doing inventory, but I totally wing-chunned the situation and came out with a better schedule and a raise!"

Looking back, it seems a little silly, but really no different than the way people have similarly expanded the use of Jiu Jitsu, as for example when they say things like, "I used verbal jiu jitsu to convince him."

 

[lansao]

Back in the 80s our local clique of young WT enthusiasts would use "Wing Tsun" as an adjective when hanging out together. Our sifu had told us that conceptually, Wing Tsun went way beyond fighting, that anytime you confront a challenging obstacle or situation, use WT ...that is, use efficiency, be flexible, and deflect the problem, or better yet, borrow the force and turn it to your advantage.

So, in our crowd you'd hear statements like, "My boss was being a total jerk and wanted me to work overtime doing inventory, but I totally wing-chunned the situation and came out with a better schedule and a raise!"

Looking back, it seems a little silly, but really no different than the way people have similarly expanded the use of Jiu Jitsu, as for example when they say things like, "I used verbal jiu jitsu to convince him."

Sharing a related answer I posted on Quora:
The best way to make a living off of your martial arts training is to find ways to integrate the concepts from your martial arts training into your profession.

For example, the epiphany you get after practicing an abstract movement until it simplifies to something obvious isn’t exclusive to your martial art. That same experience is felt by musicians, painters, writers, and programmers all the time.

When a cc-bomb email comes in and seems to target you for some issue, how should you react to it? What if it was a punch that landed in a fight? Would you lash out and over react? Would you accelerate movement and pace? No! That would leave your guard even more open and sloppy exposing you to extra attacks. You would calmly recover your guard and maintain focus on your centerline as if the punch never landed.

What is your professional centerline? What is the simplest response to that email within the realm of your safety that best maintains that centerline?

If you’re competing in business, maybe in marketing, do you target markets that your competition has invested heavily in? Would you brawl with a fighter twice your size? No! You’d look for openings, stay agile, look for the path of least resistance and avoid force against force confrontation.

So much of what you learn in your martial arts study applies to the world around you including your profession. It makes you better and less afraid because you have experience dissecting, understanding, and consequently removing layers of fear from something as vicious, complex, and wildly unpredictable as combat.

You are truly on the path of the martial artist if you take your training and apply it to your world, professional or otherwise.

 

[lansao]

Sharing a related answer I posted on Quora:
The best way to make a living off of your martial arts training is to find ways to integrate the concepts from your martial arts training into your profession.

For example, the epiphany you get after practicing an abstract movement until it simplifies to something obvious isn’t exclusive to your martial art. That same experience is felt by musicians, painters, writers, and programmers all the time.

When a cc-bomb email comes in and seems to target you for some issue, how should you react to it? What if it was a punch that landed in a fight? Would you lash out and over react? Would you accelerate movement and pace? No! That would leave your guard even more open and sloppy exposing you to extra attacks. You would calmly recover your guard and maintain focus on your centerline as if the punch never landed.

What is your professional centerline? What is the simplest response to that email within the realm of your safety that best maintains that centerline?

If you’re competing in business, maybe in marketing, do you target markets that your competition has invested heavily in? Would you brawl with a fighter twice your size? No! You’d look for openings, stay agile, look for the path of least resistance and avoid force against force confrontation.

So much of what you learn in your martial arts study applies to the world around you including your profession. It makes you better and less afraid because you have experience dissecting, understanding, and consequently removing layers of fear from something as vicious, complex, and wildly unpredictable as combat.

You are truly on the path of the martial artist if you take your training and apply it to your world, professional or otherwise.

This is in response to a question asking how one could apply their martial arts training to other professions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I struggle with that. Didn’t the art originate from a combination of “what worked” from several arts of the day?

Not sure but if it did then Several arts not called Wing Chun that when combined became wing chun

 

[lansao]

Not sure but if it did then Several arts not called Wing Chun that when combined became wing chun

Happy to get different perspectives on the history. My understanding was that it was and the reason was to create an art that could defeat the systems of the day.

Are there other takes on the history/what drove it’s development?

 

[geezer]

...My understanding was that it was and the reason was to create an art that could defeat the systems of the day.

Yep. And that's true of just about every martial art ever invented, if you think about it! BJJ for example. The Gracies didn't get together and say, hey let's come up with something that will get our butts kicked!

 

[geezer]

However, Xue is in accord with the best historical guesses I've come across, based on the limited factual evidence we have. We don't really know much before the time of Leung Jan. Several earlier systems probably contributed to the development of Wing Chun. Coming from a bit to the north of Guandong, Fujianese yongchun baihe or in Cantonese, wingchun bakhok (white crane) is often mentioned, as are the southern Hakka systems and emei snake. Others have suggested influences from the southwest of China coming along trade routes.

 

[lansao]

However, Xue is in accord with the best historical guesses I've come across, based on the limited factual evidence we have. We don't really know much before the time of Leung Jan. Several earlier systems probably contributed to the development of Wing Chun. Coming from a bit to the north of Guandong, Fujianese yongchun baihe or in Cantonese, wingchun bakhok (white crane) is often mentioned, as are the southern Hakka systems and emei snake. Others have suggested influences from the southwest of China coming along trade routes.

The story I was told was framed as a useful anecdote for understanding the impetus for the development of the art.

As I’ve heard it, it was developed ~300-350 years ago in Shaolin temple to teach weak rice farmers how to defend themselves against much stronger and well trained warriors who were oppressing them.

The art needed to avoid force against force as the rice farmers couldn’t beat the stronger invading warriors that way. It needed to be able to defeat the classical animal systems those warriors were trained in. It also needed to be able to be learned very quickly (not 20 years but 2). It goes on to say there were 5 masters from different systems who contributed what they felt worked best from their respective disciplines and developed the art.

Before they could teach it widely the temple was overthrown. But, a nun from the temple survived and passed the art on.

I mean, it sounds a bit fanciful but the core reasons the story expresses for what motivated the art’s development I think make for a good set of principles.

 

[lansao]

I get what you are saying and I've heard the term "Kung Fu" used that way, not just with fighting,but with...closing a sale or making a bowl of noodles.

It doesn't seem right to me, though to watch a boxing match and say "that was good Wing Chun". That person trained as a boxer, I don't want to take credit for their skill by associating it with what I do.

Wing Chun stays fresh because we train it and apply it, not because we try to make it something else. Conversely, I don't want to claim that other things are Wing Chun.

But I get what you're saying, even if I wouldn't say it.

Even more important than advancing the art with what other arts are doing is knowing how to respond to what other arts of our day are doing. Keeping an eye on other arts and training drills expressed in the language of Wing Chun to counter and handle for new and varying techniques from other arts. In that spirit, also seeking opportunities to test those counters against experts of the arts they focus on.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Happy to get different perspectives on the history. My understanding was that it was and the reason was to create an art that could defeat the systems of the day.

Are there other takes on the history/what drove it’s development?

There are a plethora of arts in China throughout its history that say they were created to defeat the other systems of the day..... and there are a whole lot of masters of those styles throughout Chinese martial arts history who are said to be undefeated.....there are also many styles that claim to be from some historical figure too.....and a lot of it is not true....finding the truth in CMA history is not as cut and dried as reading it from some old master...or it was told to you by your Shifu

 

[lansao]

There are a plethora of arts in China throughout its history that say they were created to defeat the other systems of the day..... and there are a whole lot of masters of those styles throughout Chinese martial arts history who are said to be undefeated.....there are also many styles that claim to be from some historical figure too.....and a lot of it is not true....finding the truth in CMA history is not as cut and dried as reading it from some old master...or it was told to you by your Shifu

I agree with that. Don't really know that the history is accurate, honestly can't say it is. Just dumping what was shared with me out so that we can have this conversation. Also appreciate that the story is shared as anecdotal in large part to just help explain the need for some of the principles of the art.

I think it's really liberating that we don't really know. It gives us some license to experiment with it and make it what we feel is most effective for us. There is something really beautiful about that.

I don't believe the art ever took the scientific method into account. I imagine not given its rediscovery/refinement in Western Europe. The same thing with other useful concepts like music notation, in particular rhythmic. I mention this in part because things like "proof by authority is meaningless" are useful concepts for making sure you dig to understand the logical physics-based proof for why what you're doing works to its most granular units of expression.

Rhythmic notation can be super useful too. For example, if we're talking about landing the foot just after the impact of a punch (I know there are different takes on this but bare with me) we can talk about the time in between the punch and the foot landing as being an 8th note. Then we can practice reducing time by decreasing length to a 16th note punch, 32nd note punch..., 64th note punch..., etc. That we ultimately want the time in between to approach 0 but that the punch land before the step (same could be said the other way around - foot landing before the punch).

 

[KPM]

Back in the 80s our local clique of young WT enthusiasts would use "Wing Tsun" as an adjective when hanging out together. Our sifu had told us that conceptually, Wing Tsun went way beyond fighting, that anytime you confront a challenging obstacle or situation, use WT ...that is, use efficiency, be flexible, and deflect the problem, or better yet, borrow the force and turn it to your advantage.

So, in our crowd you'd hear statements like, "My boss was being a total jerk and wanted me to work overtime doing inventory, but I totally wing-chunned the situation and came out with a better schedule and a raise!"

Looking back, it seems a little silly, but really no different than the way people have similarly expanded the use of Jiu Jitsu, as for example when they say things like, "I used verbal jiu jitsu to convince him."

In one of his books Dan Inosanto has written that after Bruce Lee developed the term "Jeet Kune Do", he and his students would use the term "JKD" in exactly the same way you have described. If they saw something they thought was pretty cool they would say "that's really JKD!" Another term Bruce liked was "walk on." Instead instead of saying "have a good one!" as we might today they would say "walk on!"