Wide stances and ending your forms on the same spot

[Earl Weiss]

I studied a system for 18 years before spent time with the founder. Only then did I understand some of the reasons he specified doing things a certain way. Either I was to dense, or it wasn't obvious.

maybe a bit of both ?.

Perhaps, but in school I developed a method to test this and used the same method at the founder's classes. In school we could be afraid to ask a question out of fear people might think we were stupid. So I quietly asked the people on either side of me if they understood what was being presented. If they both said no (If one said yes I would ask them to explain it to me) I would then ask the question taking comfort in knowing at least 2 other people (Likely more if both on either side of me did not get it) were as stupid as I was.

 

[jobo]

I studied a system for 18 years before spent time with the founder. Only then did I understand some of the reasons he specified doing things a certain way. Either I was to dense, or it wasn't obvious.

Perhaps, but in school I developed a method to test this and used the same method at the founder's classes. In school we could be afraid to ask a question out of fear people might think we were stupid. So I quietly asked the people on either side of me if they understood what was being presented. If they both said no (If one said yes I would ask them to explain it to me) I would then ask the question taking comfort in knowing at least 2 other people (Likely more if both on either side of me did not get it) were as stupid as I was.

you said you spent 18 years doing a ma you didn't understand , that's really odd to invest a quarter of a life time learning something with iut either asking for or receiving a satisfactory explanation. at the very least we can surmise that your instructor didn't understand it either !

 

[dvcochran]

We all need to contribute something to the MA that we love. Just to be a copy machine is not good enough.

I have developed several new training methods that my teacher didn't teach me before such as:

- Shin bite -> scoop -> sticky lift -> 45 degree sticky lift -> foot sweep
- Heel up to heel down spring -> heel down to heel up spring -> whole leg spring
- Use hook punch to set up ...
- Use uppercut to set up ...
- Rhino guard
- Double spears
- Chinese zombie guard
- Octopus strategy
- Running punch
- ...

I'm not satisfied to stay in just a good copy machine level.

With respect, I question if you truly learned everything your forms have to offer. I do not feel forms are intended to be a copy machine. Everyone does them differently. They can be thought of as long chains of individual techniques like the ones you mention. Akin to how they are used in fighting or SD. People often get frustrated with forms and tend to gloss over the parts that are difficult for them.

 

[jobo]

With respect, I question if you truly learned everything your forms have to offer. I do not feel forms are intended to be a copy machine. Everyone does them differently. They can be thought of as long chains of individual techniques like the ones you mention. Akin to how they are used in fighting or SD. People often get frustrated with forms and tend to gloss over the parts that are difficult for them.

well maybe, maybe not, as soon as your required to end up on the same spot , they can't be different otherwise you would end at a different spot, if accurately reproducing them is a requirement of a grading then they can't be different as otherwise you wont pass, and if they need to be done in time with others, they can't be different or you wont be in time with others.

they dont need to be copies to be an effective learning medium, but in a lot of cases copies are what they must be

 

[dvcochran]

well maybe, maybe not, as soon as your required to end up on the same spot , they can't be different otherwise you would end at a different spot, if accurately reproducing them is a requirement of a grading then they can't be different as otherwise you wont pass, and if they need to be done in time with others, they can't be different or you wont be in time with others.

they dont need to be copies to be an effective learning medium, but in a lot of cases copies are what they must be

I think I get what you are saying. In a large class where space is a premium and several people are doing the same form together, yes, it is necessary for everyone to stay on the same pace. BUT, within the form each person is going to do the moves differently. When room is available I encourage people to do their own form and not worry about "staying on time" with the others. We should encourage individuality within the confines of each movement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well maybe, maybe not, as soon as your required to end up on the same spot , they can't be different otherwise you would end at a different spot, if accurately reproducing them is a requirement of a grading then they can't be different as otherwise you wont pass, and if they need to be done in time with others, they can't be different or you wont be in time with others.

they dont need to be copies to be an effective learning medium, but in a lot of cases copies are what they must be

At the Karate school where I teach now, I've seen the black belts practicing kata. They specifically talk about some of the variations, and the ranking BB often just waves them off as "whichever works for you". And they do get tested on them for grading. I'm not sure how the testing works, and how much variation is accepted at what level, but it does happen.

 

[skribs]

It's kind of funny that you brought this up. One of my classmates is moving, so last week was his last week with us. So we did a bunch of stuff he wanted to work on. This included the kata Gojushiho Sho. The kata ends kind of abruptly in the middle of a repeated sequence. A student asked why the sequence wasn't completed before ending the kata, and our instructor jokingly said that they needed it to end in the same place it began.

Personally I like the idea of ending where you start. It helps to let me know that my stances and steps are consistent. Perhaps this is less important as you advance.



This guy understands academic research



Just a thought here about the competition comment. Forms seem to have some variation between schools, even within the same style. For example, I had trouble recalling part of Heian Nidan (the second Shotokan kata) after being taught it in class, so I looked it up on YouTube. There is a particular move in it that is done differently by different people. We also discussed the one fingered strikes in the beginning of Unsu. A lot of people strike downwards towards their knees, which makes no sense because what the heck are you striking at on your opponent? Apparently someone testing for their 3rd or 4th dan did it that way and got chewed out by the test people (I'm sure there's a proper term for them) and was told the correct way to strike was forwards. Yet in just about all competition videos I've seen, they strike down. So I feel like competition must be a little bit biased when it comes to judges using their own knowledge of the form, because they could potentially dock you for a variation they aren't familiar with. I also wonder if there is any bias in competition where many styles are present. If the form isn't done in your style, how do you know they didn't forget a move or substitute a technique?

The KKW forms are much more rigidly controlled.

 

[jobo]

At the Karate school where I teach now, I've seen the black belts practicing kata. They specifically talk about some of the variations, and the ranking BB often just waves them off as "whichever works for you". And they do get tested on them for grading. I'm not sure how the testing works, and how much variation is accepted at what level, but it does happen.

yes I know it does, it happens where I study, but if any of the examples I gave above apply, then it can't happen, if you even slightly varry your stride pattern during the sequence, your going to be out of time and not finishing on the same spot, if either of those a requirement of the test, then you have failed

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes I know it does, but happens where I study, but if any of the examples I gave above apply, then it can't happen

Ending on the same spot would restrict some changes, but not all. If my stances and steps are all 25% bigger than yours, in many cases we can both start and end on the same spot. With a little work, that can even be true even if only some of my stances and steps are 25% bigger than yours. The kinds of variations they discussed in the BB class had to do with everything beyond the steps - some variations in stance, some in arm/weapon movement, some even in which technique was performed with the movement (with staff, a block vs. a thrust). They were all performing in sync, including these variations. Timing was the only thing they couldn't vary, and that appears to be part of the actual kata; they are trained specific phrasing to use when performing the kata.

 

[jobo]

Ending on the same spot would restrict some changes, but not all. If my stances and steps are all 25% bigger than yours, in many cases we can both start and end on the same spot. With a little work, that can even be true even if only some of my stances and steps are 25% bigger than yours. The kinds of variations they discussed in the BB class had to do with everything beyond the steps - some variations in stance, some in arm/weapon movement, some even in which technique was performed with the movement (with staff, a block vs. a thrust). They were all performing in sync, including these variations. Timing was the only thing they couldn't vary, and that appears to be part of the actual kata; they are trained specific phrasing to use when performing the kata.

well you going to be 25% out if line and 25% further down the dojo, which may have an obstacle like a wall or another person in the way in your way( I constantly run out of dojo when doing kata), plus that still requires absolutely no variation in stride pattern over the whole course of the sequence, do a half 23% and half 25% bigger steps and your going to be miles off the point you started. its uniformity for no valid practicle reason

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well you going to be 25% out if line and 25% further down the dojo, which may have an obstacle like a wall or another person in the way in your way( I constantly run out of dojo when doing kata), plus that still requires absolutely no variation in stride pattern over the whole course of the sequence, do a half 23% and half 25% bigger steps and your going to be miles off the point you started. its uniformity for no valid practicle reason

Not necessarily. If the form is designed to return to the same spot, then if I move 25% further forward AND 25% further back, I end up where I started, same as you. If we're working in sync, it may or may not be an issue, depending upon the space. With the first set of kata I created, it would easily become an issue if you've started anywhere but the middle or somewhat forward in the space (the kata moves more back than forward from the starting point), but in some kata, it may mean nothing more than a foot or two of difference, if the kata changes directions often enough.

As for the no variation in stride pattern, that just as true (and untrue) whether you increase the size of the step or not. It's easy enough in some forms (from what I've seen and been told) to make adjustments along the way if you know the waypoints (if step 5 is back on the North-South center line, you get a quick check there of your movement in that direction, for instance).

But I think your point is that working in sync and/or returning to center is more difficult if there's any variation. That would be correct. I was just objecting to the idea that variations can't exist under those conditions.

 

[skribs]

I think the reason for having the same stride through the form (at least for the same stance) is to ensure you are properly controlling your body. That you're aware of where your feet are and are being able to consistently apply that stance.

Just like when I'm playing guitar and I have to land on the right fret. It's the practice and the muscle memory put into achieving the same distance each time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the reason for having the same stride through the form (at least for the same stance) is to ensure you are properly controlling your body. That you're aware of where your feet are and are being able to consistently apply that stance.

Just like when I'm playing guitar and I have to land on the right fret. It's the practice and the muscle memory put into achieving the same distance each time.

Jeez, I hope my guitar playing isn't an indication of my limits at kata...

 

[skribs]

Jeez, I hope my guitar playing isn't an indication of my limits at kata...

Sounds like you and I need to have a shred war.

Based on what I infer from your post, we'd be good competition for each other.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds like you and I need to have a shred war.

Based on what I infer from your post, we'd be good competition for each other.

I'm competition for absolutely nobody in that context. You'd be like Kramer at the kids' Karate class.

 

[skribs]

I'm competition for absolutely nobody in that context. You'd be like Kramer at the kids' Karate class.

I think it would be more like toddlers sparring each other.

 

[jobo]

Not necessarily. If the form is designed to return to the same spot, then if I move 25% further forward AND 25% further back, I end up where I started, same as you. If we're working in sync, it may or may not be an issue, depending upon the space. With the first set of kata I created, it would easily become an issue if you've started anywhere but the middle or somewhat forward in the space (the kata moves more back than forward from the starting point), but in some kata, it may mean nothing more than a foot or two of difference, if the kata changes directions often enough.

As for the no variation in stride pattern, that just as true (and untrue) whether you increase the size of the step or not. It's easy enough in some forms (from what I've seen and been told) to make adjustments along the way if you know the waypoints (if step 5 is back on the North-South center line, you get a quick check there of your movement in that direction, for instance).

But I think your point is that working in sync and/or returning to center is more difficult if there's any variation. That would be correct. I was just objecting to the idea that variations can't exist under those conditions.

this 25% is a red herring thrown in by you, I said you can't vary your stride length during the sequence and end up back at the same spot, which is quite obviously true.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it would be more like toddlers sparring each other.

You give my guitar playing WAAAAAY too much credit, my friend. If you can play one actual song, you'd win. Seriously.

 

[skribs]

You give my guitar playing WAAAAAY too much credit, my friend. If you can play one actual song, you'd win. Seriously.

Actual songs? No.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

this 25% is a red herring thrown in by you, I said you can't vary your stride length during the sequence and end up back at the same spot, which is quite obviously true.

No, it's not a red herring (maybe look up that term - I don't think it means what you think it means). It's just a random number used to simplify the discussion. Choose literally any number you like in its place, and my statements don't change. You can vary your stride and end up in the same spot, under certain circumstances. A very simple example (since you've decided to die on this hill) would be a form that, within its movements, has 3 steps in each direction. If you change all 12 steps (3 x 4) by the same amount, the net result is 0.

Tell me again why that's impossible, because all you've done so far is say over and over, "Nuh-uh, can't do that!"