Why your TKD blocks may not work

[dvcochran]

I took it as he was just explaining the concept of it without getting into the details of it. It's sort of how I cover things when I'm spoon feeding people Kung Fu. I recently put in a video of me working with a student on the application of the technique and I only decided to take one part of the technique to cover.

Most strikes to the groin are kicks and if you aren't careful then you'll break your arm trying to block kicks that low. The biggest risk which made me think that it wasn't a block is that to block like that leaves your head exposed so I can make a kick look low, then have it rise and kick you in the head. If you were to try and use that low block as it's shown in a real fight, then you'll get knocked out. You would have to abandon the concept to use it that way in application. However if you keep the same concept that I mention, then you can perform the technique almost exactly as you would in the form.

This is more in line with how I see it in Jow Ga Kung Fu. You can literally see the same shape of movement of that TKD low block that is done in the form.

This is also in line with what I know of "low block" which is really not a block but a strike. The reason why is because he moves out of the way of the kick and then he punishes the offending leg. The first downward block that he did on top of the shine will break your arm. I'm 100% sure of that as I almost broken mine like that when I screwed up on the "low block". I came down on the kick instead of moving out of the way first and then strike. It was just a natural reaction when I did it. It blocked the kick but I paid a heavy price.
I wouldn't recommend it unless your arms are like solid steel and your opponents shins are like wet noodles.

This is an interesting one. I don't know if it works but it's definitely not a block

On a personal note. I would never intentionally use a "low block" to block a kick like this guy does.

By the way. it's going to be a long discussion between you and me. So I guess I'll just go down the list and hit the next "block" once we juice everything out of the low block.

If you look at the motion of most the low blocks in your videos closely they are not coming straight down, they are going down and crossing. This way you do not come down on the shin bone directly. I'm not sure how you can "punish" the leg and not break your arm but break it with a block, assuming technique comes into play? We call the block in the third video a scissor or crossing block. I'm not sure what the point of the last video is. The guy speaking reminds me of the Sensei at Cobra Kai.

 

[dvcochran]

Not always true. Which is why most people don't use screw drivers to hammer nails. Even when the screwdriver has been altered to make it a "better hammer" it still under performs. This would be like saying using the right technique against a given technique.

This is why a hammer is a hammer. The right technique against a given technique

Still a hammer

Think of it this way. If you had a screw driver in a fight would you hammer or stab your attacker?
If you had hammer in a fight would you stab or hammer?

You totally missed the comment. CAN is in caps. It doesn't say SHALL. Totally different meaning.

 

[skribs]

Do you find the low blocks effective against kicks? I've had difficulty with them, and have heard that it carries the risk of one of the bones (I think radius?) breaking.
@Dirty Dog do you know if there's any scientific/medical validity to that?

If your forearm blocks their shin or their foot on a roundhouse kick, it will hurt your forearm.

If your forearm strikes their calf on a front kick or side kick, or if you catch their thigh on a roundhouse kick, then it will hurt or trap them.

 

[skribs]

Can you get some sparring video of this? I would like to see the approach you take.

Unfortunately the times I am sparring, the people I'd ask to take a video are sparring too!

I'll see if I can, but probably not any time soon.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If your forearm blocks their shin or their foot on a roundhouse kick, it will hurt your forearm.

If your forearm strikes their calf on a front kick or side kick, or if you catch their thigh on a roundhouse kick, then it will hurt or trap them.

If blocking the shin results in a broken forearm, that sounds like too much of a risk for me when there are easier ways to nullify a roundhouse kick.

 

[DaveB]

It's about using what works. We don't care where it comes from as long as it does the job.

I don't know if it would be ineffective in ground grappling or against a professional grappler, but in clinch/standing grappling it works fine.

People who are taught in a different way won't magically know something just because it works.

 

[DaveB]

You are doing it wrong.

Find movements that stop punches and make them kata.

Higher success rate that way

That's what they did.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you look at the motion of most the low blocks in your videos closely they are not coming straight down, they are going down and crossing

Correct, but for me I've found that this isn't as easy as it sounds because of timing. Kicks rise fast and most of the time the arm will be late getting their. It's safer to just move out of the way first and then strike the leg as it is returning back to it's owner. The purpose of the third video is to just show the timing because he gets the timing of the technique wrong which is why he's constantly saying that he would rather you break your arm /hand than get hit in the vital areas (kidney, groin)

When using the technique I've learn that it only works at a certain height. Stand up too tall and you'll mess up the timing because the technique is too far away to reach the kicking leg. This causes the person to lean over in an effort to reach the kick and causes a downward motion. The other thing is that you have to move sideways and out of the way of the kick first before trying to strike the leg.

As simple as the motion is for this technique I don't remember seeing this technique used by many people except for beginners and demos. I understand the concept of it because there is a nerve on the side of the shin near the ankle and if you can strike that then, it's a big advantage provided that you can time the technique correctly.

You totally missed the comment. CAN is in caps. It doesn't say SHALL. Totally different meaning.

I didn't miss it, That's why I showed a guy sinking a nail with a screw driver because he CAN do that.

Unfortunately the times I am sparring, the people I'd ask to take a video are sparring too!

I'll see if I can, but probably not any time soon.

Thanks. I'm curious to see if you have an approach to the technique that I haven't thought of.

If blocking the shin results in a broken forearm, that sounds like too much of a risk for me when there are easier ways to nullify a roundhouse kick.

This is why you use 2 arms to block a roundhouse kick. it helps to disperse that impact so that one arm isn't taking all of that force. In terms of a low block, there is no option to use two arms with a low block. Force vs Force and the forearm will lose against the shin all the time, with the exception of someone with a weak kick and bad kicking technique. Assuming that most people who use a roundhouse kick in a fight are good enough to use it in a fight.

 

[DaveB]

Those movements aren't even used for defense or blocking in modern striking. They're archaic holdovers that are being trained just for the sake of tradition and now practitioners are attempting to find expanded meaning on said archaic movements. If Karatekas or TKDers were serious about seeing if any of those movements were useful for breaking grips, they'd head over to a Judo or Bjj club and actually test them against resisting opponents.

Lol, what makes you think we don't?

Iain Abernathy is probably the world's leading bunkai exponent and he trains Judo under a world class judoka.

You have such a narrow perspective but you insist on claiming that what you've seen is all there is.

 

[DaveB]

Just throwing this in here to add some more perspectives

Jingle Bell Tree. Personally I just rather step off center. The interesting thing is that he keeps saying that he would rather for you to break your arm.

Thank you for finding this, hopefully it should clear up the questions about how these blocks occur in fighting.

 

[DaveB]

Correct, but for me I've found that this isn't as easy as it sounds because of timing. Kicks rise fast and most of the time the arm will be late getting their. It's safer to just move out of the way first and then strike the leg as it is returning back to it's owner. The purpose of the third video is to just show the timing because he gets the timing of the technique wrong which is why he's constantly saying that he would rather you break your arm /hand than get hit in the vital areas (kidney, groin)

When using the technique I've learn that it only works at a certain height. Stand up too tall and you'll mess up the timing because the technique is too far away to reach the kicking leg. This causes the person to lean over in an effort to reach the kick and causes a downward motion. The other thing is that you have to move sideways and out of the way of the kick first before trying to strike the leg.

As simple as the motion is for this technique I don't remember seeing this technique used by many people except for beginners and demos. I understand the concept of it because there is a nerve on the side of the shin near the ankle and if you can strike that then, it's a big advantage provided that you can time the technique correctly.


I didn't miss it, That's why I showed a guy sinking a nail with a screw driver because he CAN do that.


Thanks. I'm curious to see if you have an approach to the technique that I haven't thought of.

This is why you use 2 arms to block a roundhouse kick. it helps to disperse that impact so that one arm isn't taking all of that force. In terms of a low block, there is no option to use two arms with a low block. Force vs Force and the forearm will lose against the shin all the time, with the exception of someone with a weak kick and bad kicking technique. Assuming that most people who use a roundhouse kick in a fight are good enough to use it in a fight.

Karate technique is based on southern kungfu. In southern kungfu one blocks a kick with their legs not the hands.

In other words the low block was never meant for blocking kicks. As someone pointed out earlier it is a striking block. If you use it on a kick you are meant to be punching the thigh muscle or shin bone to hurt them and disable the left.

 

[Hanzou]

Lol, what makes you think we don't?

Iain Abernathy is probably the world's leading bunkai exponent and he trains Judo under a world class judoka.

You have such a narrow perspective but you insist on claiming that what you've seen is all there is.

You got some fight footage of Abernathy to back that up?

"Bunkai" doesn't cut the mustard. I want to see Abernathy consistently stripping Judo or Bjj grips with karate blocks while those guys are legitimately applying resistance.

Again, if that was an efficient way of grip stripping, we'd be using it in Gi grappling. We don't, and there's a good reason why we don't.

Edit:
Here, I'll help you out:

 

[Hanzou]

People who are taught in a different way won't magically know something just because it works.

True, which is why the impetus is on the student to seek out those answers and not let dogma and style purity cloud their martial progress. If someone else already has a round peg, just take their peg, instead of trying to make your square peg fit into a round hole.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thank you for finding this, hopefully it should clear up the questions about how these blocks occur in fighting.

No problem. I like videos like this because it helps to remind me not to make things to complicated when trying to understand a technique. Techniques should make sense in application (meaning actually using it vs a demo theory of application).

In southern kungfu one blocks a kick with their legs not the hands.

To me this is logically safer especially with low kicks and kicks with the groin.

 

[Hanzou]

Jingle Bell Tree. Personally I just rather step off center. The interesting thing is that he keeps saying that he would rather for you to break your arm.

You don't break your arm, you check the leg, or you make a shield by bringing down your elbow and connecting it with your raised knee and leg if it's heading towards your mid-section. Down blocking with your arm isn't going to stop a powerful low kick, and as the "Kung Fu master" says, will probably wreck your arm.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do you find the low blocks effective against kicks? I've had difficulty with them, and have heard that it carries the risk of one of the bones (I think radius?) breaking.
@Dirty Dog do you know if there's any scientific/medical validity to that?

It's not exactly the sort of thing you can do double blind tests on...
Every block, and every strike, has the risk of breaking something. It's fairly small, but it's there. Personally, I broke the 4th metacarpal in my left hand, but that was a screwed up block. I blocked a front kick with a low block, but I was also blocking a punch from another opponent (multiple opponent sparring) and I got my hand in front of the kick instead of striking it from the side.
In the classic low block, where you're basically doing a hammer fist strike at the attacking limb, the impact should be on the fist or close to it. That would impact on the ulna.
As for effectiveness.... depends what you mean by a low kick. If you're trying to block a kick to your thigh with this, it isn't going to be your highest percentage move. But for a kick to the abdomen or lower ribs? Sure, they work just fine.

The other thing to remember is that a low block isn't a low block. That's just a name we give to aid in teaching. Every block is a strike. Every strike is a block. Lots of them are also grab releases or throws, too.
Techniques aren't.
They're just ways to teach movement, and if you break it down, a "low block" is also, for example, a high cross-body block. Picture this: I am facing an opponent. They throw a straight punch at my face with their left hand. I bring my left hand up and across, deflecting their punch to my right. That is exactly the same movement made when chambering a low block. And if you've been practicing low blocks properly, this movement will have become just as automatic as the low block portion.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If your forearm blocks their shin or their foot on a roundhouse kick, it will hurt your forearm.

Really? Then how come I've blocked roundhouses with my forearm for 50 years without an injury?
You do know that you do not have to stop the movement of the kick with your block, right? All you need to do is slow it down or redirect it enough to keep it from doing you any injury.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Had the kick been at full strength, with the intent to harm, then it would have easily broken my arm. IMPORTANT NOTE: My sparring partner had conditioned shins..

All you need to do is slow it down or redirect it enough to keep it from doing you any injury.

This is a different concept to the low block as most teach it. Slowing down = interruption of power, Redirection = pushing where the strike is most weak.

This is not the same concept in the TKD low block as many teach it.

 

[skribs]

If blocking the shin results in a broken forearm, that sounds like too much of a risk for me when there are easier ways to nullify a roundhouse kick.

You use your feet to put you in a better spot. If you're right next to them, then they can't deliver the full power into their foot or shin.

Really? Then how come I've blocked roundhouses with my forearm for 50 years without an injury?
You do know that you do not have to stop the movement of the kick with your block, right? All you need to do is slow it down or redirect it enough to keep it from doing you any injury.

I think the purpose of this thread is the traditional blocks as taught. Are you using the typical down-block taught in most Taekwondo schools? I'm curious how you're doing this.

I've blocked a few roundhouse kicks and while I never had my arm broken, I've taken some pretty good hits that made me rethink the idea. And these were blue belts that were kicking me, not black belts. And these were with pads. But using the same arm motion but with a step into my opponent, I can hit at the hinge instead of the payload and it's much more effective at catching the kick.

Personally I like to palm strike their foot when they roundhouse kick to me. It hurts them more than it hurts me.

 

[skribs]

You don't break your arm, you check the leg, or you make a shield by bringing down your elbow and connecting it with your raised knee and leg if it's heading towards your mid-section. Down blocking with your arm isn't going to stop a powerful low kick, and as the "Kung Fu master" says, will probably wreck your arm.

I couldn't watch the first video, because he really should have a partner if he's going to show how these blocks work.

The second video, at 5:30, you can see him leaning forward to attack the kick above the knee, instead of blocking down at the shin. This is kind of what I'm talking about (although instead of leaning in I'd slide in or step in). There's just not that much power in the thighs as compared to the feet.