J
Jas0n
Guest
Want to take A form of Ninjutsu rather than Kenpo? Can someon help me with this. I am not asking for a flame war I want to know what you guys think and why it is better in your minds?
OP
Mon Mon
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #2
Jason the question you are asking is a realy hard one. Understand one martial art is not better than another. It really more depends on what your looking for. For instantce if you want glory and to win and go to tournaments then sport martial arts are for you. If you don't want that stuff and want to learn how to protect yourself then combat martial arts would be for you.
I can't answer for Genbukan or Jinenkan because i have not trained in their orginizations, however i can tell you that those orginizations do contain real ninjutsu in them. I don't just study Ninjutsu but i study Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. This art is a combination of 6 samurai arts and only 3 ninja arts. Bujinkan is a combat art and there are no prizes for training. Budo Taijutsu is very rich in heritage and part of the joy from it for me at leaste is knowing that what i am doing is a way of life.
As for why i like studying this art Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu over something like Kenpo is probably because it fits me. I have always enjoyed ninja as a kid and now i do the real thing and know the truth behind it. In short look at the arts you are concidering studying choose one that fits you and go with it put your heart and spirit into your practice and your art.
I can't answer for Genbukan or Jinenkan because i have not trained in their orginizations, however i can tell you that those orginizations do contain real ninjutsu in them. I don't just study Ninjutsu but i study Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. This art is a combination of 6 samurai arts and only 3 ninja arts. Bujinkan is a combat art and there are no prizes for training. Budo Taijutsu is very rich in heritage and part of the joy from it for me at leaste is knowing that what i am doing is a way of life.
As for why i like studying this art Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu over something like Kenpo is probably because it fits me. I have always enjoyed ninja as a kid and now i do the real thing and know the truth behind it. In short look at the arts you are concidering studying choose one that fits you and go with it put your heart and spirit into your practice and your art.
Timothy,
Everything in that portion of your post is misinformation. Genbukan and Jinenkan both have real Ninjutsu. Manaka sensei and Tanemura sensei are both Menkyo Kaidensha of Togakure ryu Ninpo.
It is incorrect to state (though it's popular) that there are 6 samurai arts and 3 ninja arts. Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu both are considered "samurai arts" in that statistic...even though they were founded, trained and passed on by Ninja.
OP
Mon Mon
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #4
Jay you missunderstood when i said i can't speak for those orinizations i ment about their philoshpy and exactly how they train in my post you quoted i did say that they did have real ninjutsu.
WOOPS..my bad. See what happens when I post from work? 
Sorry about that
Sorry about that
Bujingodai
Black Belt
I'd agree with Tim, I don't think you can really compare what it better by just a physical evaluation. I myself have no interest in tourneys or sparring for win. I guess I just feel right doing Ninjutsu, thats why I do it. It is more a lifestyle choice.
Not better, just better for me.
Not better, just better for me.
OP
Shojin
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #7
A quick note about Ninjutsu/Ninja/Ninpo etc...
It is common for people in the Bujinkan (online that is) to say they only have three Ninja Schools and six samurai schools. This was a recent parroting of about the last six or seven years for the most part.
I believe this stems from people getting "half truth" information from online resources and then spreading it.
Ninjutsu Ryu focus on *Ninjutsu* stealth, spying etc. If it has Taijutsu and weapons, then they are designed for people who would be in spying situations. Look at ton so no kata for example.
Some schools like gyokushin ryu, kumogakure ryu etc.. Assume a foundation in some sort of taijutsu and just have specific hints and suggestions for certain situations. With most of what is written down, being about infiltration, spying, poison, weather considerations strategy etc...
THIS is Ninjutsu!
Now, we also have schools of Taijutsu, Ninja of course had their own Taijutsu, in the Takamatsuden tradition, the ninja had a base in the kosshi jutsu and koppo jutsu of both gyokko Ryu and koto Ryu also connections with the daken taijutsu and ju taijutsu of shinden fudo ryu!
These schools were not "Ninjutsu", but they WERE the taijutsu on NINJA!
Think of it like this...
You are in the army, you learn basic hand to hand and weapons use. In the USA army today, they have a manual, that manual is like a densho. What they are learning from that manul is like "their" ryu of taijutsu (just like gyokko ryu for example)
Now some of them go on to study how to be spys. What they learn there is specific for being a spy. It has it's own collection of information, this would be like a "Ninjutsu" ryu, like Togakure ryu.
But, when a "spy" has to fight hand to hand, he uses the system the army teaches all enlisted aong with his special training. See?
So while it is true that there are four schools of "Ninjutsu" passed down from takamatsu which are:
Togakure Ryu
Kumogakure Ryu
Gyokushin ryu
And certain books from kukishin/Amatsu tatara
There are ALSO the following schools used by Ninja as their form of taijutsu
Gyokko Ryu Koshi Jutsu
Koto Ryu Koppo jutsu
Shinden Fudo ryu Danken taijutsu
Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutai jutsu
I can even say kukishin Ryu, because kukishin has actual ninjutsu teachings at the higher levels, so thoise people who would do those teachings were "Ninja" and their system was Kukishin Ryu Ninjutsu
(It should be noted that takamatsu Sensei was going to promote kukishin Ryu Ninjutsu instead of Togakure ryu. Fact is MOST of Togakure ryu IS from kukishin Ryu scrolls word for word!)
So the "Ninja connection" is in almost every art we do Genbukan ninpo/Bujinkan. We must also note that in the case of genbukan, what we study is PURE Ninpo meaning it is a composite art, Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, historically most all the arts in it were used by ninja, though regardless, today, they are all Genbukan NINPO BUGEI which "could" be considered a new ninpo Ryu based on the combination of the older ones.
Regards,
It is common for people in the Bujinkan (online that is) to say they only have three Ninja Schools and six samurai schools. This was a recent parroting of about the last six or seven years for the most part.
I believe this stems from people getting "half truth" information from online resources and then spreading it.
Ninjutsu Ryu focus on *Ninjutsu* stealth, spying etc. If it has Taijutsu and weapons, then they are designed for people who would be in spying situations. Look at ton so no kata for example.
Some schools like gyokushin ryu, kumogakure ryu etc.. Assume a foundation in some sort of taijutsu and just have specific hints and suggestions for certain situations. With most of what is written down, being about infiltration, spying, poison, weather considerations strategy etc...
THIS is Ninjutsu!
Now, we also have schools of Taijutsu, Ninja of course had their own Taijutsu, in the Takamatsuden tradition, the ninja had a base in the kosshi jutsu and koppo jutsu of both gyokko Ryu and koto Ryu also connections with the daken taijutsu and ju taijutsu of shinden fudo ryu!
These schools were not "Ninjutsu", but they WERE the taijutsu on NINJA!
Think of it like this...
You are in the army, you learn basic hand to hand and weapons use. In the USA army today, they have a manual, that manual is like a densho. What they are learning from that manul is like "their" ryu of taijutsu (just like gyokko ryu for example)
Now some of them go on to study how to be spys. What they learn there is specific for being a spy. It has it's own collection of information, this would be like a "Ninjutsu" ryu, like Togakure ryu.
But, when a "spy" has to fight hand to hand, he uses the system the army teaches all enlisted aong with his special training. See?
So while it is true that there are four schools of "Ninjutsu" passed down from takamatsu which are:
Togakure Ryu
Kumogakure Ryu
Gyokushin ryu
And certain books from kukishin/Amatsu tatara
There are ALSO the following schools used by Ninja as their form of taijutsu
Gyokko Ryu Koshi Jutsu
Koto Ryu Koppo jutsu
Shinden Fudo ryu Danken taijutsu
Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutai jutsu
I can even say kukishin Ryu, because kukishin has actual ninjutsu teachings at the higher levels, so thoise people who would do those teachings were "Ninja" and their system was Kukishin Ryu Ninjutsu
(It should be noted that takamatsu Sensei was going to promote kukishin Ryu Ninjutsu instead of Togakure ryu. Fact is MOST of Togakure ryu IS from kukishin Ryu scrolls word for word!)
So the "Ninja connection" is in almost every art we do Genbukan ninpo/Bujinkan. We must also note that in the case of genbukan, what we study is PURE Ninpo meaning it is a composite art, Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, historically most all the arts in it were used by ninja, though regardless, today, they are all Genbukan NINPO BUGEI which "could" be considered a new ninpo Ryu based on the combination of the older ones.
Regards,
Good post, Rick!
heretic888
Senior Master
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2002
- Messages
- 2,723
- Reaction score
- 60
Wonderful post, Rick!! :asian: Big ups and mad props!!
I would also like to add that virtually all of the older ryuha within Takamatsu-den (Gyokko-ryu, Kukishin-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu) have a historical origin in Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu. Togakure-ryu, Koto-ryu, Gikan-ryu, and Gyokushin-ryu also have a historical basis in Gyokko-ryu (as does Kumogakure-ryu, I believe).
In addition, the names of the men that developed these arts are associated with the forty-five families of the Iga-ryu ninja (such as Toda, Tozawa, Izumo, Sakagami, etc etc) and sometimes these schools were actually 'founded' by Iga-ryu jonin, such as Gyokko-ryu being 'founded' by Iga-ryu jonin Tozawa Hakuunsai.
The only Bujinkan ryu that I know of that is more or less absent of any 'ninja connection' is Takagi Yoshin-ryu. Of course, I could be wrong about that.
In any event, I think we can all agree on that this hardline division between 'ninja' and 'samurai' traditions is NOWHERE near as black and white as some people have supposed. In fact, I would even go as far to claim that the distinction between the 'ninja' and 'samurai' themselves is a little murky.
Eh, just my thoughts.
I would also like to add that virtually all of the older ryuha within Takamatsu-den (Gyokko-ryu, Kukishin-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu) have a historical origin in Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu. Togakure-ryu, Koto-ryu, Gikan-ryu, and Gyokushin-ryu also have a historical basis in Gyokko-ryu (as does Kumogakure-ryu, I believe).
In addition, the names of the men that developed these arts are associated with the forty-five families of the Iga-ryu ninja (such as Toda, Tozawa, Izumo, Sakagami, etc etc) and sometimes these schools were actually 'founded' by Iga-ryu jonin, such as Gyokko-ryu being 'founded' by Iga-ryu jonin Tozawa Hakuunsai.
The only Bujinkan ryu that I know of that is more or less absent of any 'ninja connection' is Takagi Yoshin-ryu. Of course, I could be wrong about that.
In any event, I think we can all agree on that this hardline division between 'ninja' and 'samurai' traditions is NOWHERE near as black and white as some people have supposed. In fact, I would even go as far to claim that the distinction between the 'ninja' and 'samurai' themselves is a little murky.
Eh, just my thoughts.
The origin and inter-relation between the schools of the Bujinkan have been made really, really murky by some self styled "experts" on the internet who can not even read Japanese. Unless you really have a great interest, or read Japanese, your best bet is to just not pay attention to the matter when it is discussed ont he internet.
As for he original question, you should study the art you think is best for you and under the teacher who is best qualified. I know many "ninjutsu" teachers who are of low quality and shoudl be avoided. I have a friend who does Ed Parker style Kenpo and he sometimes makes the same comment about someof the fols teaching his art.
Instead of worrying about the differences between arts and asking ont he internet, you should go to the teachers in your area and find out who is the most qualified to teach what you want to learn. A teacher who has had several years experience in a job using his martial arts (like an emergency room or mental health ward orderly) would be better for the purpose of learning self defense than a tenth dan in any art whose main influences on his outlook towards combat is based on the movies.
As for he original question, you should study the art you think is best for you and under the teacher who is best qualified. I know many "ninjutsu" teachers who are of low quality and shoudl be avoided. I have a friend who does Ed Parker style Kenpo and he sometimes makes the same comment about someof the fols teaching his art.
Instead of worrying about the differences between arts and asking ont he internet, you should go to the teachers in your area and find out who is the most qualified to teach what you want to learn. A teacher who has had several years experience in a job using his martial arts (like an emergency room or mental health ward orderly) would be better for the purpose of learning self defense than a tenth dan in any art whose main influences on his outlook towards combat is based on the movies.
OP
Mon Mon
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #11
There are also instructors i feel who are very qualified one of them is Mr. Ken Harding i met him last summer and had the fun of going to his dojo and training with him a few days at his dojo. He is awesome he really helped me with his quality of teaching. So my point is for incompeatent instructors there are also good instructors.
Deaf
Green Belt
I thought Ken Harding was "retired" (not really the word I would use) or not teaching anymore???
OP
Mon Mon
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #13
He still teaches he just is not in the bujinkan anymore
