Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Gerry Seymour]

Well since I'm so incompetent, nothing I say will be of any use.

ONE: Let me preface this with we are getting at this over the internet. That is a barrier at some point. I stated that before.

TWO: One has to define martial arts. TMA has a definition and boxing has a definition. I believe the TMA definition is comprehensive. The traditional karate definition is the more comprehensive than boxing, but not the most sophisticated among TMA. Okinawan karates' definition is more sophisticated than the Japanese or Korean karates as a general rule.

Once you get to the kung fu's, now you are really getting comprehensive. And among kung fu, there's a whole hierarchy of sophistication.

So in all of that, the Japanese traditional karate offshoot I practice is pretty basic TMA. What separates and distinguishes traditional karate from Tiger "Dumb" Thai, and boxing, is how body, mind & spirit are developed through the training, particularly one's mental strengths. I've reflected this in my gibberish posts as some posters have called them.

And that's okay.

So, it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The black-belt (other guy) didn't go into a lot of specifics. We kinda had a philosophical meeting of the minds.

Heres' a brief illustration of the limits of boxing.
Ronda Rousey looking crisp on a heavy bag
2,609 views

Federico Mateu
Published on May 7, 2014

Ronda Rousey, once lauded as top WMMA star, flamed completely out, now gone from MMA forever. Why? In my book this is brainless.

Now you or someone could come back and say with a Floyd Mayweather bag work video. Where you would be wrong is that I already covered that by stipulating to the successes of our Dojo's 1st Degree Black-belt cleaning up at karate tournaments. Boxing works and CAN outdo karate. Happens most of the time, let's say.

The issue though, is what is the potential of traditional karate compared to boxing, with both trained towards their potential. So now we are back to defining, assessing, ascribing the potential underlying both arts. And to do so competently, we have to examine principles. We can't just look to a supposition or working conclusion like your resistance training. Or mixing / cross triaging techniques from numerous styles.

And so the noob has given you the conceptual game plan. Follow on on next post.

How one person trains really doesn't address the question. I've seen people train badly - and well - in every MA I've ever witnessed. Often, I saw both happening in the same room.

The same goes for an individual "cleaning up" at a tournament. There's nothing odd about a Karateka winning (or losing) a Karate tournament, any more than there's anything surprising about a boxer winning (or losing) a boxing match.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now, I can take issue with this guy. I can say I'm more sophisticated based on what I see here. He's doing, however, analysis. He's thinking about the whole picture (not suggesting you aren't).
Revealing Fake Martial Arts... Is board breaking relevant to REAL fighting?
130,714 views

Jermaine Andre
Published on Jun 4, 2016

He's talking about confidence (I don't think of board breaking that way, I'm sure many do gain confidence from board breaking.). Then, however, he goes on with the mechanics of how to successfully break the board, He's on his way. He's pointing people into the right direction.

He says it's not about being strong (he has huge arms), its' about how you apply that strength. There is a process. At one point he is deliberately hitting the board and not breaking it. Then he hits the board and deliberately breaks it. Then he concludes that this is part of the training. And that there are other parts. And they all have to work together.

The problem in answering how traditional martial arts excels with this video is that the protagonist is so strong, most likely he could break a board without any training or good technique. So lets' look @ the weaker sex to demonstrate.

Euros 2016: Female Power Breaking
11,243 views

Taekwon-Do Euros
Published on Aug 3, 2016

SUBSCRIBE 401
Female Power breaking decisive moments in European Championships 2016.

Women as a general rule do not equate with the physical strength of men. Their muscle mass is less, their muscle density is less, their bones are lighter and less dense. As a generality, not a sports medicine study.

These Female TKD Black-Belts are at a European Board Breaking Championship. Black-belts at a Continental championship. Not Sally from the dojang. See some of the dismal failures. Oh, TMA doesn't work, TMA critics complain. Boxers hitting the heavy bag develop power. True, that works, can work very well. Here's a comprehensive way to look at board breaking.

Scenario 1: You have weak body mechanics; the board won't break. Some of our Female TKD Black-belts.

Scenario 2: You have good body mechanics; the board can or will break. Our "Mr. ARMS" in my previous post, for simple sake.

Scenario 3: You have good body mechanics powered by strong mental discipline; the board will always break.

And there is the spirit on top of that.

Boxing I look at as training good body mechanics, primarily. So a well conditioned boxer can probably punch break the standard boards here. Traditional karate, however, starts by training body mechanics, then progresses to mental strength over the body in a highly disciplined way.

This isn't black and white, of course. You can have mentally disciplined boxers. But not like karate. The way karate training exercises the body & mind is fundamentally different. And thats's if you understand that and don't screw it up.

When we talk about training the mind, that's an intangible. When we are talking about the mind exercising such complete control over and with the body, that's intangible principle. And so difficult to empirically see, to evaluate, to practice knowingly.

The reason TMA fails in MMA, or is under-represented in MMA is because TMA as most people train is physically centered. With that mindset, boxing is better. Boxing is faster to learn and is more practical to use. Same with Muay Thai. And that's not to say attaining high level boxing skill is doing physical drills, the physical program.

Further investigation, one has to go to the dojo, learn from instructors, learn the manual, study the curriculum. Research online, etc. There's a process by which TMA trains. Why it does what it does. And its' way more sophisticated than Tiger Muay Thai.

For Review: What qualities relative to the other Female TKD Black-belt competitors, does the winning champion exude or represent? She is the example to learn from. How much is good body mechanics, how much mental strength is the driving force behind that whole body strength, we can't know for sure from a video over the 'net.

A few thoughts on this.

First, it seems you're implying that Karate's board breaking is a demonstration of a better focus on how to generate power than boxing. I see no evidence either in favor of or against this. Board breaking isn't something boxing trains to, so we have no solid comparison.

You keep referring to the mental development in traditional Karate. Are you certain a similar development doesn't occur in boxing, under the right circumstances (remembering that you've often said TMA is often taught incorrectly, so it lacks this, too)? This is where I take issue with your assertions - you clearly state you've no experience in boxing, yet keep trying to demonstrate where its deficiency lies in this area. But can you really know that? The Karate training I had (very brief, both times) had none of that mental development you speak of, but I don't assume it can't exist in Karate, because my sample size (my two times training in the art) is far too small to judge from.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

JKA KIHON TECHNIQUES
4,074 views

Ulysse Karasira Sibo
Published on Apr 14, 2018

So what do you see when you watch this video of traditional karate training in its pure form?

Here's what I see.
Second Degree Board Breaking: ITF TKD
10,479 views

tkdfitness
Published on Dec 12, 2015

How much is good body mechanics, how much is mental strength, how much is the mental strength driving the body mechanics;? that's for the individual practitioner to answer of traditional karate to answer for themselves. She's no physical powerhouse though, can't ascribe her constant success at differing & challenging set ups for that.

Okay. So nothing in boxing can confer this same type of development?

 

[Tez3]

First, it seems you're implying that Karate's board breaking is a demonstration of a better focus on how to generate power than boxing.

A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it.

I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it.

I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.

Cats always win, Tez. Even when they're wrong, they're right, because cat.

 

[Headhunter]

So, it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?

Don't know why you're still trying with this guy

 

[Yokozuna514]

We use board breaking in Kyokushin for a number of reasons:

1) To check technique - The saying goes, 'boards do not lie'. If your technique is deficient (eg: Hand not closed tightly, wrist on an angle, not punching through the target...etc), the board will not break without a lot of pain.
2) A mental test - Breaking a board can be a difficult mental test for some. They need to overcome the fear of pain and trust in their technique to have a successful break.
3) Conditioning - To break boards you need to condition your hands and feet or whatever part of your body you use to break things. Training should include elements to condition your body for the rigours of breaking (tamashiwari).

Board breaking is a tool to augment and test your training. However, as Bruce Lee said, "Boards don't hit back" so just because you can break things doesn't mean you're the cat's meow. Your fighting ability will not have been improved by it if you cannot hit your opponent so karateka should always keep this in perspective. If you are successful at breaking things and you train to fight effectively, I have no doubt that your opponents will feel each successful strike.

 

[ShotoNoob]

So, it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?

Hi GPS. Go back over my posts and cross reference against a Shotokan karate manual, a Shotokan website spelling out the curriculm. See what you come up with.

Get back to me with your plan.

 

[ShotoNoob]

How one person trains really doesn't address the question. I've seen people train badly - and well - in every MA I've ever witnessed. Often, I saw both happening in the same room.

Oh GPS, there you go finding fault again. Can the video portray an issue? Do your own examination. I'd hate to be one of your students, the student is expected to bring you on the answers.

We have good karate practicer's and bad karate practicer's in my & every dojo too. So?

The same goes for an individual "cleaning up" at a tournament. There's nothing odd about a Karateka winning (or losing) a Karate tournament, any more than there's anything surprising about a boxer winning (or losing) a boxing match.

Oh GSP, there you go finding fault again. A second time. You're are making bland generalizations, without discussion points, which then redirects the center of attention to you and your viewpoint. Is there aspects of TMA you are in the dark about? Is that why you are always tinkering with them?

I suspect that is the / one source of your troubles. Hooboy.

 

[ShotoNoob]

A few thoughts on this.

Ok. Fire away.

First, it seems you're implying that Karate's board breaking is a demonstration of a better focus on how to generate power than boxing.

On the board breaking, well yes & no, and you are warm but not hot.

I see no evidence either in favor of or against this. Board breaking isn't something boxing trains to, so we have no solid comparison.

How 'bought boxers can hit very hard. I think we are ok there. But what kind of power are you talking about? And there you go raising objections again, again, & again.

You keep referring to the mental development in traditional Karate. Are you certain a similar development doesn't occur in boxing, under the right circumstances (remembering that you've often said TMA is often taught incorrectly, so it lacks this, too)?

Mental development is where karate is at, traditionally speaking. That's my base.

And I did specify (should you study carefully my posts on boxing vs. karate) that boxing ramps up with mental development too. Boxing can train mental development. Not like karate tradition.

Then you bring in the crappy TMA training. That's correct. Training karate the way boxing is habitually trained is a mistake. It blows up the longer term development of karate power. It makes karate dumb.

This is where I take issue with your assertions - you clearly state you've no experience in boxing, yet keep trying to demonstrate where its deficiency lies in this area.

But can you really know that? The Karate training I had (very brief, both times) had none of that mental development you speak of, but I don't assume it can't exist in Karate, because my sample size (my two times training in the art) is far too small to judge from.

And there you go yet again finding an objection right to start.

Because I've studied boxing academically, observed boxing and fought boxers, alway winning too! The first degree black belt at my dojo who trains boxing, uses boxing to win tournaments is fine with my perspective, and agrees karate traditional training eclipses boxing over time.

The point is you don't recognize the mental dimension. And that is the common affliction with TMA and it's training, hence it's under-performance and under-representation in MMA. Your are in the same karate boat as most TMA practitioners.

Let me close by reiterating that your approach as I understand it, the realistic pressure drills -works. The adaptations you are seeking may well prove out as more practical and effective than kihon karate technical form in many circumstances. All good.

I'm speaking developmentally.

 

[Tez3]

Hi GPS.

Oh GSP,

Are you being discourteous here?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Are you being discourteous here?

Are you being funny here?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Okay. So nothing in boxing can confer this same type of development?

GPS, you keep coming back with challenge answers with no discussion / review of your own. IOW, you're not saying anything.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Cats always win, Tez. Even when they're wrong, they're right, because cat.

Cats? Wow. No typo this time?

 

[ShotoNoob]

TEZ: A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it.

Cats are right 'cause they're cats. And rolleyes? Playing cat up? Get it, cat up?

I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.

Oh, TEZ the cat lover. How sophisticated we cat lovers are. That's all I could find, close enough.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Okay. So nothing in boxing can confer this same type of development?

Here you go GPS. Compare this karate kumite vid with a boxing fight vid of your choice. Review, explain and conclude with summary.
SA JKA 2017 Tournament Highlights

12,710 views


Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
Published on Jun 16, 2017

GPS Seymour said: So it seems to come down to a "mind, body, spirit" development. But what does that really mean? What does traditional training offer that training in boxing inherently doesn't?

Two Guidelines:

[1] Basis is your quoted text. Good & Bad. Hint: I see both.
[2] No "Cats." Lleave out the juvenile. It signals insecurity(ies).

Have @ it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

A lot of karateka don't break boards though, I've never done it and I know many others who don't either but it's probably a waste of time pointing that out to shootonoob isn't it.

I can't argue with him as I actually have no idea what he's talking about, it's like arguing with my cat, she thinks she's always right and will just make weird noises to prove it.

To me, it reminds me of that quote about playing chess with a pigeon...no matter what move you make, it knocks over all the pieces, takes a crap on the board, then flies on your head claiming victory.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't know why you're still trying with this guy

How else am I gonna keep my post count up??

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi GPS. Go back over my posts and cross reference against a Shotokan karate manual, a Shotokan website spelling out the curriculm. See what you come up with.

Get back to me with your plan.

Yeah, that doesn't answer my question, at all. You made an assertion, and I'm asking for detail. Telling me to go do a bunch of research for you is lazy discussion.