Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[twendkata71]

Matsumura Seito Shorin ryu, Goju ryu, uechi ryu, ryuei ryu, Matsubayashi ryu, ryukyu kempo, Okinawan kenpo. These are styles that still teach those type of things at the advanced levels. Then again you will have to find the right teacher in those styles.
Most styles of Japanese karate do do not teach them because of the emphasis on sport karate. There are a few in Japanese karate do that teach these things, but they are hard to find and you would have to train with them for a long time to gain their trust.

 

[exile]

Matsumura Seito Shorin ryu, Goju ryu, uechi ryu, ryuei ryu, Matsubayashi ryu, ryukyu kempo, Okinawan kenpo. These are styles that still teach those type of things at the advanced levels. Then again you will have to find the right teacher in those styles.
Most styles of Japanese karate do do not teach them because of the emphasis on sport karate. There are a few in Japanese karate do that teach these things, but they are hard to find and you would have to train with them for a long time to gain their trust.

Good info. Major grappling components are, I suspect, implicit in (and recoverable from) the forms of all the variants of karate (Okinawan, Japanese, Korean), but it's very helpful to have a list of the ryu which at least in principle build them into the formal curriculum, instead of leaving it to the individual practitioner to carry out the bunkai analysis that uncovers them.

 

[JBrainard]

Matsumura Seito Shorin ryu, Goju ryu, uechi ryu, ryuei ryu, Matsubayashi ryu, ryukyu kempo, Okinawan kenpo. These are styles that still teach those type of things at the advanced levels. Then again you will have to find the right teacher in those styles.
Most styles of Japanese karate do do not teach them because of the emphasis on sport karate. There are a few in Japanese karate do that teach these things, but they are hard to find and you would have to train with them for a long time to gain their trust.

Thank you very much! Now I've gotta' do some research...
I found a bunch of schools that teach these ryu, now I gotta' check 'em out.
Thanks again dude!

 

[donald]

as i am sure has been already stated in previous responses to this post. i believe its a mix of the student, and the art being taught. i believe that alot of the things taught in traditional karate,i.e. goju ryu, are highly applicable to a self defense situation. probably not everything is usable on the streets of today, but what you put in, is what you will get out. if you train with a street defense mindset, and give it your best. i believe that you will be able to defend yourself.

 

[exile]

if you train with a street defense mindset, and give it your best. i believe that you will be able to defend yourself.

yes---the training mindset is the key---the resources are all there. I also think though that it's really important to have an instructor who is on the same page with you in that respect.

 

[evenflow1121]

Most people learn how to make a fist, throw a punch, execute certain blocks through traditional Karate among other things, all part of self defense. Think the article is inaccurate.

 

[exile]

Most people learn how to make a fist, throw a punch, execute certain blocks through traditional Karate among other things, all part of self defense. Think the article is inaccurate.

Evenflow---I agree, but I think what Mann would say in response to you is that, well sure, you learn blocking/punching/kicking in traditional karate but what you don't learn is how to fight---how to put the striking components together to protect yourself in response to an attacker's physical aggression. And it's true that not all dojos/dojangs emphasize the use of striking weapons in a coordinated effective way to incapacite an attacker as soon as possible, at least enough to get away safely from the situation. Mann's would put it this way: traditional MAs, by their very nature, equip you to become not martial artists but, in effect, martial arts actors, able to create the illusion of effective fighting skills under choreographed conditions where no real danger exists, but hopeless in the brutal conditions of unscripted violence. And it's true, many people who train in the MAs are limited in that way---but not because of the inherent content of traditional MAs. What's at fault is not karate, nor TKD, nor [fill in favorite maligned martial art] but the way those people have trained. If you train right, you learn not only how to throw a punch or deliver a kick, but how to force an unwilling opponent to comply with your defensive strategy so that you can actually deliver those tools effectively.

The missing link between that level of skill and the MAist is, according to a lot of knowledgeable people (many of them on this board), the kind of instruction that is offered at too many MA schools. Mann would have done far better to aim his criticism not at karate itself but at programs which claim to teach karate never cover the basics of effective self-defense against an untrained antagonist who is nonetheless quite used to, and comfortable with, a level of violence that would be scary to even experienced MAists, who tend to be fairly normal people. There's plenty to criticize in that directlon---but what Mann does instead is something like blame the car itself for an accident caused by a careless driver... it's not a perfect analogy but the two cases do have something in common.

 

[JasonASmith]

My Sensei is always harping on the fact that if what we are doing NOW in the Dojo can't translate effectively to THERE in the street, it's bogus...He also often makes the point that no one is born a fighter, it's something that you have to LEARN through dedicated practice and the proper mindset...

 

[exile]

My Sensei is always harping on the fact that if what we are doing NOW in the Dojo can't translate effectively to THERE in the street, it's bogus...He also often makes the point that no one is born a fighter, it's something that you have to LEARN through dedicated practice and the proper mindset...

A lot of very experienced instructors have indicated that they don't teach the genuinely dangerous applications until they've had someone as a student long enough to judge whether s/he will use that knowledge responsibly. And the thing is, it's not easy to learn combat applications of MA tactics on your own. You need someone who's been there and experimented with the fighting system to show you how to use the resources of that system under realistic (i.e. extremely unpleasant) conditions. I suspect though that as you continue with your Sensei, bits of the fighting applications latent in the system will start creeping into your training. It's an unusual instructor who completely ignores that aspect of their art in their teaching.

 

[twendkata71]

I am a traditional karate practicioner. I have had to use karate in real street situations. You have to learn to work with the adrenelan rush that happens in a real attack. That is where many martial artists get stuck in a real situation. When that addrelelan kicks in and they don't know how to manage it. It becomes overwhelming and they make mistakes. In some cases fatal mistakes. Mental training is just as important as the physical. Mental training in the dojo should somewhat similar to what soldiers go through before going off to battle. Many of my past instructors were ex miliary. And their classes reflected that. The problem definetely lies in today's feel good karate,martial arts,etc. Now mind you that another important aspect of karate, and martial arts in general is the development of the individual to become a better,stronger minded person. To defeat their weaknesses.

 

[Hand Sword]

Excellent points!

 

[exile]

The problem definetely lies in today's feel good karate,martial arts,etc.

The real problem, I've come to believe, is that training along the lines you describe---`reality-based' is the new buzzword---forces people to confront something that they really, really don't want to look at: the prospect of actually fighting. And they're right to not want to fight; a real fight is horrible, win or lose (except for the sickies who thrive on violence for its own sake). But MAs exist in the first place as sets of skills to you the best chance of coming out of a real fight relatively undamaged. That's where the arts came from in the first place. The people who developed Asian MAs probably didn't want to fight any more than any of us do, but unreasoning violence was part of their reality and they didn't have the luxury of ignoring it. MAs weren't parts of their entertainment lives; they were tools to survive real assaults that weren't uncommon under often lawless conditions.

When these arts are transplanted to radically different circumstances, like mid-20th c. urban mega-societies, they become something very different. For most people, most of the time, personal violence is kept at a distance (though you can find it easily enough if you go looking for it!). The reality of the MAs---you are trying to hurt someone severely enough to stop them from trying to damage you---is just too raw. So if you run a MA school and want to stay in business, you just might not want to make your students have to take seriously the fact that the real `feel-good' intention of the MAs is to be able to congratulate yourself on shutting some guy who was trying very hard to take your head off. I think that's why so many MA schools do the kind of thing you're complaining about...

 

[twendkata71]

You make a good point. I do not teach on a commercial basis. My students came to me looking for self protection training. Plus the rest of what traditional martial arts have to offer.(Physical fitness,mental training,etc.). You are right. Real attacks are ugly,and it is never like in the movies. When I studied Okinawan Shorin ryu, that instructor did not have a commercial school, he didn't waste time on padding your emotions. Our dojo moto was
" The more you sweat in the dojo, the less you blead in battle."
Yes the majority of dojo/dojangs/etc. simply do not want to face the reality of a street confrontation. And when your primary income is that school. Well, you are going to teach people in a way that is going to keep them coming back.

 

[JasonASmith]

[ And when your primary income is that school. Well, you are going to teach people in a way that is going to keep them coming back. [/quote]

Thank God that my Sensei isn't like that, but I guess that I can't slam on people that are...too much...

 

[exile]

You make a good point. I do not teach on a commercial basis. My students came to me looking for self protection training. Plus the rest of what traditional martial arts have to offer.(Physical fitness,mental training,etc.). You are right. Real attacks are ugly,and it is never like in the movies. When I studied Okinawan Shorin ryu, that instructor did not have a commercial school, he didn't waste time on padding your emotions. Our dojo moto was
" The more you sweat in the dojo, the less you blead in battle."
Yes the majority of dojo/dojangs/etc. simply do not want to face the reality of a street confrontation. And when your primary income is that school. Well, you are going to teach people in a way that is going to keep them coming back.

Yes, and your students are lucky to have you as a source of the real deal, which people in a heavily commercially oriented MA school are frequently denied, for just the reason you mention. I'm fortunate too in that my TKD teacher does not get paid by his students; he teaches as part of a city program here in Columbus and I think he gets some compensation from the city---not anything like what his teaching, knowledge and skills are worth, but 'twas ever thus, eh? But it's an arrangement that allows him to cover exactly the material from the vast treasurehouse of TKD skills that he thinks are crucial and central to real mastery of the art. And I know of other instructors whose schools are their livelihood but who don't compromise their integrity, who teach the technical core of their art and also its combat applications to students who they judge to be responsible enough to learn that material, and sacrifice large classes and serious money in order to maintain a very high level of quality. But it's all too rare...

There's a real dilemma involved. When an MA is made available only to a very small number of devoted adepts, its survival is dicey because knowledge of it is vested completely in a small group of people living in a dangerous world, and one-to-one replacement of expertise over the generations is in no way guaranteed. And when an MA is very widely spread, its survival is also dicey because that wide a spread tends to go hand-in-hand with dilution of the core components of the system, resulting in what you called the `feel-good', lowest common denominator content we see in McDojangs/McDojos. The best place for an MA to be is somewhere in between these poles---I have the sense from my reading that that's what Anko Itosu was aiming at when he started his program of repackaging Okinawan karate for the schools there a century or so ago. But it seems as if we've definitely gone about as far as we can go in the `mega' direction...

 

[twendkata71]

Master Choon Yang in Columbus is a Taekwondo instructor that teaches the art for the development of his student and the art, and teaches for realizm. He also does not incourage competition. There are a lot of people that feel that Taekwondo has lost its effectivness as a self defense art. There are still many Taekwondo instructors that teach what the original Masters in Korea meant the art for. Not just the commercial side or Olympic Taekwondo.
I come from a Japanese/Okinawan background. I respect all arts. And I feel that for the most part all arts have value.

 

[exile]

Master Choon Yang in Columbus is a Taekwondo instructor that teaches the art for the development of his student and the art, and teaches for realizm. He also does not incourage competition.

Thanks for the info, twendkata---do you have the name of his dojang? I'd like to stop by and pay my respects---I'm trying to get a sense of the `traditional TKD' community in Columbus and nearby places.

There are a lot of people that feel that Taekwondo has lost its effectivness as a self defense art.

They're basing that on the media picture of TKD, which tends to focus on the sports side. And some of it, of course, comes from people who love to bash anything other than their own fighting system. It's not just MAs---in trying to answer one of my son's questions, I recently encountered the same kind of disdain for what others do/think on some discussion board involving the relative toxicity of Australian snakes! Believe it or not, there are some herpetologists out there with big chips on their shoulders...

There are still many Taekwondo instructors that teach what the original Masters in Korea meant the art for. Not just the commercial side or Olympic Taekwondo.

I come from a Japanese/Okinawan background. I respect all arts. And I feel that for the most part all arts have value.

I agree completely, and I think it's worth doing a bit of studying to see how those other systems work---even though you don't do them yourself, there are probably lessons in them for more effective application of ones' own MA.

 

[twendkata71]

The name of his school is the Choon Yang karate institute,( I think that is the name. He never changed it from the karate sign when he opened the school back in the early 70's.) It is on 2870 West Broad street I believe. Not so far out as Paiks school. I met Master Yang several years ago. A friend of mine and former student married his niece.
My personal experience with Taekwondo was at one of our karate camps many years ago. Taekwondo and karate master Roger Jarret (Chong Shin Kwan ) used to come to our camps. He taught me several kicking techniques when I was starting out. He now is the President of the USA National Karate do Federation,(sport) NGB for traditional karate with the USOC.

 

[exile]

The name of his school is the Choon Yang karate institute,( I think that is the name. He never changed it from the karate sign when he opened the school back in the early 70's.) It is on 2870 West Broad street I believe. Not so far out as Paiks school. I met Master Yang several years ago. A friend of mine and former student married his niece.

Thanks so much for this info. I have a dim idea of where his dojang is located---over the river a ways from my side of town, but quite easy to get to. He's in the phone book.

My personal experience with Taekwondo was at one of our karate camps many years ago. Taekwondo and karate master Roger Jarret (Chong Shin Kwan ) used to come to our camps. He taught me several kicking techniques when I was starting out. He now is the President of the USA National Karate do Federation,(sport) NGB for traditional karate with the USOC.

I've always thought that it would be good for TKD and karate practitioners to spend a bit of time learning a bit about each other's technical bases. The two, while they've developed in somewhat different directions from their `common ancestor' fighting systems, are close enough in their overallstrategic view of combat and their skill sets to be able to fit ideas from each other's approaches into their own existing curricula. The kind of camp you referred to sounds like it was great in that respect. I wonder if there's anything like that around here... hmmm... could be a great way to spend part of a summer.

 

[JBrainard]

You need someone who's been there and experimented with the fighting system to show you how to use the resources of that system under realistic (i.e. extremely unpleasant) conditions.

Very good point. I found (on accident, I admit) a Shotokan Sensei who was a marine for years, so I suspect he knows what works and what doesn't.