Why some people still don't want to wear mask?

[jobo]

Errr... you’re not reading for comprehension again. I’ll say it slower. A... “for profit”... healthcare system... is... immoral.

i think he is saying that the american health care sysyem is socialist

 

[jobo]

I am working right now and don't have the time to get into it with you. I will just say your history proves you always have a motive with a comment like that. I will make one attempt with a link; but you will interpret it wrong and twist it anyway.
Ethical Issues in For-Profit Health Care - For-Profit Enterprise in Health Care - NCBI Bookshelf

not for profit organisations can still be outragiously expensive, a socalist ist system would have all care free at the point of use

that is no matter how poor or rich you are every one gets the same care, paid for though taxation of the rich.

from your bragging in past threads that appears to be you

 

[JowGaWolf]

And let's not forget the financial advantage for hospitals to include C-19 in a diagnosis.

I'm not sure about this one. I don't think there is much of a financial advantage in this area. Hospitals were already running on tight budgets before Covid-19. I can only image that it's getting worst. So Looked it up


This report attempts to quantify these effects over the short-term, which are limited to the impacts over a four-month period from March 1, 2020 to June 30, 2020. Based on these analyses, the AHA estimates a total four-month financial impact of $202.6 billion in losses for America’s hospitals and health systems, or an average of $50.7 billion per month. Source: Hospitals and Health Systems Face Unprecedented Financial Pressures Due to COVID-19 | AHA

 

[Steve]

I am working right now and don't have the time to get into it with you. I will just say your history proves you always have a motive with a comment like that. I will make one attempt with a link; but you will interpret it wrong and twist it anyway.
Ethical Issues in For-Profit Health Care - For-Profit Enterprise in Health Care - NCBI Bookshelf

Why on earth are you talking about "getting into it"?

 

[Steve]

i think he is saying that the american health care sysyem is socialist

I honestly don't know what he's saying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the same post you saying we, as layman, are not supposed to understand or know anything about what is going on. Then in the same post you question the very process you are trying, and failing, to uphold.
C'mon man. Get on one side of the fence and have the balls to stay there.

When I post, I sometimes share my initial thoughts about a subject. Mainly because, I type those thoughts first and then figure that I better look it up and I end up including the source that I found. The stuff that we don't understand is the stuff that we don't study or have any expertise in. So the best you can do is use the information that you either find or get straight from the source. If you aren't getting any information at all, then the best that you can do is a guess.

How many of us have hands on experience for creating test to detect viruses, then on top of that how many are involved in creating the tests for COVID-19. So unless we are are in that same boat, our understanding is going to be very limited. Again. How many of us study or have any experience in identifying viruses and tracking virus mutations? So unless you are getting some good information, there is very little we are going to understand.

For example, tell me how virus testing is created and what elements do you look for when testing for a specific virus? Do you use a certain chemical to detect it or is it completely biological. What's the average cycle threshold for detecting viruses? If there's no average then what cycle ranges to we look for? If you know the answer to stuff like this then have at it. Share your knowledge. If you don't know stuff like this then you are either going to guess, or post source link. Which is what I do. If you got a problem with what I post then read the source links that I posted then give your opinion about that information on the page.

Here's some perspective about things and people who complain about Corona Virus Accuracy
"South Korea took a risk, releasing briskly vetted tests, then circling back later to spot check their effectiveness. By contrast, the United States’ FDA said it wanted to ensure, upfront, that the tests were accurate before they went out to millions of Americans."
Source: Special Report: How Korea trounced U.S. in race to test people for coronavirus

As far as my family I imagine it was no different from anyone else who has been tested.
But that is not good enough for you. Now you are huffing and puffing the WE were supposed to somehow determine the samples were mixed up or did not get handled properly or even that the test was not done properly? How the hell would ANYONE be able to find out this information?

That's what I'm telling you. So before you start saying that your Family's test was flaw and that the testing is no good. Keep in mind that there are other things that could cause an inaccurate test other than a Crappy testing method. I literally just posted COVID-19 Testing documentation from a company that says that the testing as to be at 40 cycles, because of the test is looking for a specific thing, that's not COVID-19. They said if you don't see it then the test will most likely be inaccurate. Look at the link man. That's why I posted it, now you are are going to have a fit with me because of what a COVID-19 manufacturer posted in their Testing documentation. If you don't like it take it up with them, since you know better than they do.

It lessons any credibility you may have had on the subject when you keep jumping back and forth over the fence, claiming everything is going along as it should one time , then feebly trying to explain why some things are not working.

Dude I don't have any credibility on this stuff. Never said I did. That's why I post links from sources who do have credibility. If you don't believe me on this stuff, read the source. That's why I post. So you can read it and post your own thoughts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

FYI For all of you who think I have credibility on COVI-19. I just want to let you know. I'm not an epidemiologist. I don't study viruses. I don't fight on the front line of the COVID-19. I don't work in a hospital and take care of COVID-19 patients. I don't manufacture nor develop testing for viruses. My college degree is in business and not medicine. I don't have a bachelors, masters. or doctorate degree in medicine.

I HAVE NO CREDIBILITY ON COVID-19 WHICH IS WHY I POST LINKS FROM SOURCES THAT DO HAVE CREDIBILITY. So if you are in the same boat that I'm in, then YOU DON'T HAVE CREDIBILITY. If you don't read material from CREDIBLE SOURCES then don't get mad at me when I do and give my thoughts about it. Read some of these links learn something, then post your thoughts based on what you read.

 

[Steve]

i think he is saying that the american health care sysyem is socialist

I can't tell if we agree on single payer or not. Read the article he posted and it just reinforces a lot of what I've been saying for years.

FYI For all of you who think I have credibility on COVI-19. I just want to let you know. I'm not an epidemiologist. I don't study viruses. I don't fight on the front line of the COVID-19. I don't work in a hospital and take care of COVID-19 patients. I don't manufacture nor develop testing for viruses. My college degree is in business and not medicine. I don't have a bachelors, masters. or doctorate degree in medicine.

I HAVE NO CREDIBILITY ON COVID-19 WHICH IS WHY I POST LINKS FROM SOURCES THAT DO HAVE CREDIBILITY. So if you are in the same boat that I'm in, then YOU DON'T HAVE CREDIBILITY. If you don't read material from CREDIBLE SOURCES then don't get mad at me when I do and give my thoughts about it. Read some of these links learn something, then post your thoughts based on what you read.

Well said. And why I'm very skeptical of folks who pass along BS and then say, "I'm not doing the research for you. Look it up yourself." We should all be showing our work, so that everyone can judge for themselves the credibility of the source information.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Things that affect the accuracy of COVID-19 TESTING
Prior to looking at COVID-19 Testing documentation, I didn't think much about the accuracy of the testing being the hardware. It wasn't until I read the documentation that I was surprised at how many things could actually affect the test.

These are just a few things that may affect the accuracy of COVID-19 TESTING. Some of these will apply to all testing while other's will only apply to a specific Manufacturer's test. I highlighted the type of test in Bold Blue

ID NOW COVID-19 source: https://www.fda.gov/media/136525/download
"SPECIMEN COLLECTION AND HANDLINGUse freshly collected specimens for optimal test performance. Inadequate specimen collection or improper sample handling/storage/transport may yield erroneous results. Refer to the CDC Interim Guidelines for Collecting, Handling, and Testing Clinical Specimens from Persons for Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nCoV/lab/guidelines-clinical-specimens.htm." (<-THIS LINK HAS NO DATA BUT IS PART OF THE QUOTE.) I may try to see if there is a old copy of that page on the web if I get really curious about it.

IMPORTANT: " Positive results are indicative of the presence of SARS-CoV-2 RNA; clinical correlation with patient history and other diagnostic information is necessary to determine patient infection status. Positive results do not rule out bacterial infection or co-infection with other viruses. "

Changed my mind halfway through, but left part of the original post because it refers to the "Awesome" test that Trump talks about. ID NOW COVID-19 test is A coronavirus test made by Abbott Laboratories (NOT FDA, NOT CDC). You can go this website to see trump holding showing it. https://khn.org/news/trump-touted-abbotts-quick-covid-19-test-hhs-document-shows-only-5500-are-on-way-for-entire-u-s/


National Geographic Magazine has it's own thoughts on why the Coronavirus testing failures were bound to happend.

Why the U.S. coronavirus testing failures were inevitable
Years of underfunding and a crucial laboratory mistake led to weeks of delay—and the virus’s undetected spread.
source: Why the U.S. coronavirus testing failures were inevitable

"The delays in part result from design flaws with the early diagnostic tests developed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

At the same time, those CDC errors have exposed other shortcomings in the nation's capacity for diagnostic testing that existed years before the novel coronavirus emerged in China, according to Catharina Boehme, (link to her twitter posts) the CEO of Foundation for Innovative New Diagnostics (FIND), a medical nonprofit based in Geneva, Switzerland."

"Since 2006, the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, which is a branch of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, has provided hundreds of millions of dollars in grants for so-called rapid-response platforms—initiatives intended to develop technology at a fast pace when an outbreak emerges. These funds were directed primarily toward the development of therapeutic treatments and vaccines rather than creating diagnostic methods for new threats or increasing the volume of tests the system could perform. As a result, Boehme says, test development has lagged behind efforts to bring new vaccines to clinical trials"

"

Testing has also been hampered by shortages of vital components, including the chemical solution used to extract genetic material from clinical samples, the machines needed to run the test, and the swabs used to collect the samples, according to a statement released by the American Society for Microbiology.

Commercial and university laboratories rushed to fill the gap. Many of them, especially larger companies such as LabCorp and Roche, now use a similar but improved version of the CDC’s testing technique. Smaller labs such as Mammoth Biosciences and Sherlock Biosciences have gotten more creative, developing tests using CRISPR, a promising gene-editing technology. Multiple startups have also developed a collection of at-home tests, but doctors and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) have warned against their use, in part because self-administering a nasal swab is difficult and could cause injury. Also, a poorly-executed swab could lead to a negative result when a person is actually infected"

The article continues and goes into

The problem with primers
Rigid rules

I haven't read more than what I posted here.due to limited time. Gotta create some email newsletter templates for a Church that I provide website services to. I would also recommend doing a couple of searches about labs that were caught or accused of improper Testing and lab procedures.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well said. And why I'm very skeptical of folks who pass along BS and then say, "I'm not doing the research for you. Look it up yourself." We should all be showing our work, so that everyone can judge for themselves the credibility of the source information.

Especially with this and how many of us, including me, have been put into the habit of jumping to conclusion without information. I blame Facebook that. I even find myself seeing a headline and not thinking beyond that headline. I've been doing better than I have in the past. But it kind of creeps up on me from time to time.

My biggest fear is that most people don't do this and will believe anything without thinking. That makes it very easy to manipulate people. I'm afraid that the U.S. society as a whole is like this and as a result, it's going to be easy to steer the country in the wrong direction. For example, how many people think COVID-19 is a hoax. It's not just in the US, it's also happening in other countries. I think the only way to really combat stuff like that is to post Sources and to not let the BS slide.

If I say some BS I hope someone lets me know and then posts a link to a source so I can correct my thinking.

 

[dvcochran]

When I post, I sometimes share my initial thoughts about a subject. Mainly because, I type those thoughts first and then figure that I better look it up and I end up including the source that I found. The stuff that we don't understand is the stuff that we don't study or have any expertise in. So the best you can do is use the information that you either find or get straight from the source. If you aren't getting any information at all, then the best that you can do is a guess.

How many of us have hands on experience for creating test to detect viruses, then on top of that how many are involved in creating the tests for COVID-19. So unless we are are in that same boat, our understanding is going to be very limited. Again. How many of us study or have any experience in identifying viruses and tracking virus mutations? So unless you are getting some good information, there is very little we are going to understand.

For example, tell me how virus testing is created and what elements do you look for when testing for a specific virus? Do you use a certain chemical to detect it or is it completely biological. What's the average cycle threshold for detecting viruses? If there's no average then what cycle ranges to we look for? If you know the answer to stuff like this then have at it. Share your knowledge. If you don't know stuff like this then you are either going to guess, or post source link. Which is what I do. If you got a problem with what I post then read the source links that I posted then give your opinion about that information on the page.

Here's some perspective about things and people who complain about Corona Virus Accuracy
"South Korea took a risk, releasing briskly vetted tests, then circling back later to spot check their effectiveness. By contrast, the United States’ FDA said it wanted to ensure, upfront, that the tests were accurate before they went out to millions of Americans."
Source: Special Report: How Korea trounced U.S. in race to test people for coronavirus

That's what I'm telling you. So before you start saying that your Family's test was flaw and that the testing is no good. Keep in mind that there are other things that could cause an inaccurate test other than a Crappy testing method. I literally just posted COVID-19 Testing documentation from a company that says that the testing as to be at 40 cycles, because of the test is looking for a specific thing, that's not COVID-19. They said if you don't see it then the test will most likely be inaccurate. Look at the link man. That's why I posted it, now you are are going to have a fit with me because of what a COVID-19 manufacturer posted in their Testing documentation. If you don't like it take it up with them, since you know better than they do.

Dude I don't have any credibility on this stuff. Never said I did. That's why I post links from sources who do have credibility. If you don't believe me on this stuff, read the source. That's why I post. So you can read it and post your own thoughts.

Fair enough. I told you my experience with testing 17 people. You just made up reasons why it could be inaccurate because you want to believe it is much worse that my experience with the virus and subsequent testing. I have real world, working world experience for the sources closest to me. I cannot do any better than that. With the exception of my son's positive test I believe they were all accurate. The surrounding results of no one in contact with these 17 people contracting the virus it more proof.
Your dogged research is proof positive that you, like others on here, are seeking for confirmation and buying into the things you read. online. You have little to no first hand experience.
And before you say it; Yes, I know people who have been sick from the virus and some that have passed, one being a 2 year old who already had complications

 

[dvcochran]

I can't tell if we agree on single payer or not. Read the article he posted and it just reinforces a lot of what I've been saying for years.

Well said. And why I'm very skeptical of folks who pass along BS and then say, "I'm not doing the research for you. Look it up yourself." We should all be showing our work, so that everyone can judge for themselves the credibility of the source information.

Another cogent reason I do not post links. What is the point when you already have your mind made up?

 

[dvcochran]

I honestly don't know what he's saying.

I expected blowback. Single payer system is analogous with socialism.

Definition of single payer healthcare:
Single-payer healthcare is a type of universal healthcare in which the costs of essential healthcare for all residents are covered by a single public system. Single-payer systems may contract for healthcare services from private organizations or may own and employ healthcare resources and personnel.

Paint a white horse grey and it is still a white horse. Do your homework.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm not sure about this one. I don't think there is much of a financial advantage in this area. Hospitals were already running on tight budgets before Covid-19. I can only image that it's getting worst. So Looked it up


This report attempts to quantify these effects over the short-term, which are limited to the impacts over a four-month period from March 1, 2020 to June 30, 2020. Based on these analyses, the AHA estimates a total four-month financial impact of $202.6 billion in losses for America’s hospitals and health systems, or an average of $50.7 billion per month. Source: Hospitals and Health Systems Face Unprecedented Financial Pressures Due to COVID-19 | AHA

The best I can do right now.
Fact check: Medicare pays hospitals more money for COVID-19 patients

 

[dvcochran]

not for profit organisations can still be outragiously expensive, a socalist ist system would have all care free at the point of use

that is no matter how poor or rich you are every one gets the same care, paid for though taxation of the rich.

from your bragging in past threads that appears to be you

So how long would you have to wait for an elective procedure under you system?

 

[dvcochran]

i think he is saying that the american health care sysyem is socialist

No, and I don't want it to be. I want it to be a totally privatized system. But that will never happen.

 

[jobo]

So how long would you have to wait for an elective procedure under you system?

its based on need, urgent care comes instantly , less urgent, a month or two, well before the lock down, god knows what it is now.

the guy a few doors up went to the docs on a wed, had a heart bypass on the Thursday

 

[EdwardA]

Yep, now there's ads for face shields on tv.

 

[jobo]

it was oretty dire a coupke of decades ago, 8 month waiting lists and the like, but thats lobg gone

there is of course private health care here as well, but they only want to do, min9r surgery, anything like a heart bypass and yoyr back on the nhs

i went private with my sliped disc back in the 90s, after being told it was 8 mobths to even see soneone.

he took my consultation fee, which id been told to bribk in cash, and imdiatly refered me to the consult at the nhs hospital, for imediate operation, he consult i was seeing and the cobsultant he refered me to were one and the same person, just he was now 500 quid richer

 

[dvcochran]

its based on need, urgent care comes instantly , less urgent, a month or two, well before the lock down, god knows what it is now.

the guy a few doors up went to the docs on a wed, had a heart bypass on the Thursday

Lets say you needed a knee replacement or wanted a face lift?