Why Muslims cannot be good americans

[kuntawguro]

Interesting questions for the Muslim Community to discuss & for research
on our part also.

Can a good Muslim be a good American? I forwarded that question to a
friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years The following is his
forwarded reply:

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of
Arabia. Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his
Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)


Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of
Islam and the Quran (Koran). Geographically - no. Because his
allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make
friends with Christians or Jews. Politically - no. Because he must
submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of
Israel and Destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and
beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 ).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution
since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be
corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not
allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot
co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the
Christians God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as
heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Qurans 99 excellent
names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be
very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot
be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish, its still the truth. You had better believe it!
If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above
statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who
understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future.
Pass it on Fellow Americans. The religious war is bigger than we know
or understand.

And Braack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President...

 

[michaeledward]

And Braack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President...

Senator Obama does not practice Islam.

 

[Sukerkin]

Whilst there is a background of doctrinaire fact in the bare statements above, they pay no credence to the fact that everyone is human, no matter where they are from or what religion they practise.

So whilst a Borg-Muslim (or those whose real aims are political rather than spiritual) may indeed tick all those boxes as noted, the majority (I hope) would seek an accomodation that allowed everyone to get along as best they can.

For myself, I fear that the machinations of the so-called 'leaders' on both sides of this equation have been orchestrated so as to make a religious war inevitable.

It's ludicrous in the 21st Century that we're recommitting the mistakes of the 12th - perhaps that's why my opinion keeps swinging between "There's no hope for mankind whilst he persists in believing in invisible, all-powerful, beings that created the universe for our benefit" and "Humanity will eventually come to his collective senses and realise the genetic truth that we are all one family".

EDIT: Not being racist here but I forgot with the last statement that it's actually not conclusively true - the Australian Aboriginies are, I think, a slightly different genus. Can anyone correct or elaborate on that?

 

[heretic888]

The hilarious thing about this line of argumentation is that I could interject the word "Christian" for "Muslim" here and the same arguments could apply almost 100%.

Of course, the arguments are rooted in ignorance and ethnocentrism anyway, so its hardly even worth concerning one's attention with....

 

[Monadnock]

I think that's a stretch, if you're going to leave the original post word for word.

Also, I thought the Bible mentions that we should support and follow the rules of our government and leaders...

 

[kuntawguro]

I received this Muslim thing in my e mail and thought I would pass it on- I do not subscribe to ignorance. Just making things available to discuss and dissect.

 

[Kacey]

This is an email that has been kicking around the 'net for years. The same argument about many religions can be made using the religion's own sacramental text.

Are there Muslims who cannot be good Americans? I have no doubt. Does that mean that no Muslims can be good Americans? I have plenty of doubts. Religion is the means that many cultures use to teach morality, and, often, ideology - but that does not mean that all Muslims, or members of any other religion - cannot be good Americans, just because some members of a particular religion follow an ideology that is anti-American, any more than no members of religion "A" can get along with members of religion "B", just because the ideology of religion "A" causes some members of religion "A" to persecute members of religion "B".

 

[heretic888]

I think that's a stretch, if you're going to leave the original post word for word.

Obviously not word for word, but there are Christian (and Jewish) equivalents for virtually everything argued in the OP. Hell, I could probably find Hindu and Buddhist equivalents, too, if I looked hard enough.

In any event, its a silly argument without merit. Ideological assumptions aside, I'm sure we all know Muslims that are "Good Americans" (whatever that's supposed to mean).

Also, I thought the Bible mentions that we should support and follow the rules of our government and leaders...

It also tacitly accepts both slavery and the subjugation of women, social ostracization and/or violence against "non-believers", chastises the value of public education, and endorses a theocratic rule.

Of course, the vast majority of people of *any* faith cherry-pick their holy scriptures anyway (or at the very least, re-interpret them as reflecting the values of their time and culture), so this really shouldn't be cause for alarm.

 

[Sukerkin]

Also, I thought the Bible mentions that we should support and follow the rules of our government and leaders...

Not quite. The intent for the usual quote on this runs something like "Leave Caeser's things to Caesar and God's things to God", meaning that a good christian follows the laws of the land he is in except in those cases where mans law conflicts with Gods, in which case ...

Standard infiltration dogma :lol:.

Bottom line for all 'this' (as in murder and destruction in the name of some unproven super-being) is that the day we leave religion behind is the day we have the right to call ourselves an evolved and moral species.

 

[heretic888]

I received this Muslim thing in my e mail and thought I would pass it on- I do not subscribe to ignorance. Just making things available to discuss and dissect.

Kuntawguro, I am not saying you subscribe to what was written in your OP. It was obviously one of those mass-produced, pass-to-your-buddy emails that you clearly did not write yourself.

However, the fact remains that the actual contents of the original email reflects ignorance and cultural elitism. I am not accusing you of these things, but direct them at the author of the original email (who I am sure did not have the guts to sign his work).

 

[Monadnock]

Not quite. The intent for the usual quote on this runs something like "Leave Caeser's things to Caesar and God's things to God", meaning that a good christian follows the laws of the land he is in except in those cases where mans law conflicts with Gods, in which case ...

Standard infiltration dogma :lol:.

Bottom line for all 'this' (as in murder and destruction in the name of some unproven super-being) is that the day we leave religion behind is the day we have the right to call ourselves an evolved and moral species.

Maybe that's another interpretation. Here is another reference:

Hebrews

16And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. 18Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way.

Perhaps Government leaders are not to whom are referred, and I am sure there are instances where someone might live in a country with laws that conflict, so obviously you can't follow them 100%. But that wouldn't constitute being a "bad" <relgion name> follower.

All in all, the original email is quite rediculous, I agree there.

 

[grydth]

I believe the thread originator need not be shot as the messenger, nor held to believe in one side or the other of the item he posted. People should be able to put up highly controversial topics.

That said, the item offered up reeks of ignorance and prejudice. I've known quite a number of American Muslims whose lives illustrate what nonsense that email is.

I genuinely hate the Islamoloonies that attacked our country on 9/11, and those sneak killers who are murdering our troops by the day. I wish bad and early deathes on them. But tar an entire major religion as all being that? Well, by that (ir)rationale all us white male Army veterans with Middle East service must be as nutty and homicidal as McVeigh and Nichols!

 

[kuntawguro]

I've been shot already- bad rep points for posting the email
so, I am just going to keep my mouth shut from now on.

 

[alfyed11]

Islam is not a "religion" in the way we understand religions to be. It is a system of government as well. And, as much as people want to make comparisons, no, sorry, we can't compare the Koran with the Bible or any other religious texts.

If you've read the Koran (and I'm guessing most of the people who complain about the "ignorance" of earlier postings haven't), you'll see some bare facts:

The "prophet" Mohammed was a slave-keeper, murderer, rapist, warlord, and pedophile. He invented this "religion" in order to justify the destruction and subjication of any other culture he came into contact with. If you don't understand this right from the beginning, you don't understand Islam. It isn't ignorant to bring up some facts here, but I suggest anyone trying to make a comparison between religions should consider how Jesus or Budha would be regarded if they had sex with a 9 year old girl, or kept slaves, or personally murdered and raped hundreds if not thousands of people, or told his followers the proper way to rape women in front of their captive husbands. Mohammed did all these things, and he started a "religion" to justify it, made forced conversion or death the way to spread his power, and happily made the penalty for leaving his invented religion death.

"But all religions have this sort of thing."

You've got to be kidding me.

I've seen time after time someone stating that it is "ignorant" to describe Islam as exactly what it is. The product of a drunken deranged murderer, who invented "revelations" every time he wanted to kill someone or sleep with their wife. Here's a little quote from the "prophet" of the "Religion of Peace." There are many, many, MANY, like this in the Koran and Hadith.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, ... nor follow
the religion of truth... until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
Qur'an, Sura 9:29
​

Read some of the Koran, and Hadith, please, before you presume that the guy from Saudi Arabia was wrong. Islam is spread by the sword, and is still being spread violently. I'm leaving a link at the bottom of this for anyone who would like to read up about this. And, I apologize for how frank I'm being, but I'm a little close to the subject matter, and, I'm afraid. Islam is a cancer, and it's spreading.

Learn more: www.TheReligionOfPeace.com

 

[Gordon Nore]

I've been shot already- bad rep points for posting the email
so, I am just going to keep my mouth shut from now on.

That's unfortunate. Perhaps now would be a good time for a Mod edit -- perhaps the text in a blockquote to clarify Kuntawgruo intentions.

As for the content itself -- any perceived problem with beliefs described is self-correcting. Someone who subscribes to that interpretation of Islam probably wouldn't want to live in the USA or Canada or many other places.

As a teacher I am in contact with many Muslim families, and so far I've not run into anything quite so extreme. I'm sure such examples exist. Just as I know of Christian families who disown their gay children and hang out at abortion clinic scaring women.

Bruce Springsteen put it really well: There's nice guys and *******s on every block.

 

[michaeledward]

I left a negative reputation mark.

The original post was not listed as a third-party notation. The original poster placed it here under his/her own name. It is reasonable to assume that the thoughts are his/her own.

The language is hateful and denigrating. And I believe it is becoming far too common, under claims of "I personally don't believe this, but ... ".

Hateful language is hateful language. One can not spread peace and understanding by disseminating hate.



And, if I am not mistaken, with my reputation disabled, negative reputation given out has no impact on the reputation of the recipient.

 

[Kacey]

I've been shot already- bad rep points for posting the email
so, I am just going to keep my mouth shut from now on.

I've seen this particular email previously, so I knew what it was... but still, posting it as you did, without identifying your source, made it appear as if you were condoning the views expressed within it.

I don't think you need to refrain from giving your opinion - but you might want to differentiate between things you are passing on for comment, and those you actually believe yourself.

Going back to the discussion at hand, there are plenty of similar emails floating around, the majority which lump all members of a particular group - religion, race, nationality, etc. - into the most negative light possible, and I find that to be despicable; it serves only to accentuate the differences between groups instead of the similarities, and to give those inclined toward prejudice more ammunition for their biased thinking.

In this particular email, all members of religion are lumped together based on the scripture of the religion - but how many people do you know who believe in, and follow, their religious text implicitly and to the letter? Some examples from the Old Testament (being Jewish, I'll stick with the best-known scripture of my religion) to point out that even the most religious, observant practitioners of my religion do not follow their scripture completely... their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding:

Exod 22: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
When was the last time you allowed a known witch to live? But this one is problematic today... what makes a person a witch? Moving on...

Leviticus 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
Hmm... burnt any offerings lately? I know I haven't... but still... sacrifices of this nature haven't occurred (in theory, at least) since the Temple was last destroyed... moving on.

Leviticus 11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Now, I know some Orthodox Jews who keep the food laws... but not many - and quite a few of those that claim to have an amazing ability to obey the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit - one even asked me if the fake crab meat tastes like real crab meat; since crab is not kosher, she was eating the fake stuff, and wanted to know how it compared.

Deuteronomy 5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
I have to say that, even in the Orthodox community (I have quite a few Orthodox Jewish friends) this one happens a lot - laws notwithstanding.

Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
No personal knowledge here... but I will say most communities don't make laws against things that don't happen - why give people ideas?

Leviticus 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
Do I really need to say anything about this one? I mean... honestly?

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave.' "
Now.... slavery is almost universally abhorred (if, disturbingly, still present in too many places) - nonetheless, the Bible contains many passages condoning the owning of slaves - even describing how they are to be treated. But how many people in first world countries today would condone such actions... religious scripture notwithstanding?
[/FONT]
​

I could go on... but my point is that no members of any religion follow their scripture to the letter - they pick and choose those parts that they consider important, and use them to bolster their opinion.

 

[heretic888]

"But all religions have this sort of thing."

Well, yeah, because they do.... at least the Big Three do, that is.

Seriously, you should actually read the Bible sometime. Its loaded with murder, rape, slavery, subjugation of women, the deliberate hatred and violence against the "non-believer", and so on. As I said before, pretty much *everything* that has been said about Islam can be turned around on the Bible, as well.

As for your own position.... well, sorry, ignorance is as ignorance does. You characterize millions of human beings on the basis of some passages in a religious text. This is absurd. Human beings are individuals, they are not encapsulated by their holy writs. This is just irrational ethnocentrism and bigotry.

As I said before, most people of any faith cherry-pick the parts of their scriptures that appeal to them. This goes for Jews, Christians, Muslims, or whoever. Just as you have cherry-picked the parts of the Koran that make a convenient Enemy for you to sling bile at.

Tch, please.

 

[Makalakumu]

Also, I thought the Bible mentions that we should support and follow the rules of our government and leaders...

Heh. I bet it does! You don't happen to have a citation for that? I'd like to show that to a friend of mine...

 

[kuntawguro]

That is why it started out with......
Interesting questions for the Muslim Community to discuss & for research
on our part also.

Can a good Muslim be a good American? I forwarded that question to a
friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years The following is his
forwarded reply:


I just posted to get insights and peoples opinions. I have Muslim and Arabic students. They don't have that attitude- but, they agreed that they were not supposd to have Christian friends and they were not to acknowledge any other faith.