Why don’t you see aikido used in judo?

[kaizasosei]

although i try not to get too mixed up, since youth-a little later than bbt(around the time when segal was getting big),
i have come to use many techniques of aikido...done at the right time on the correct person and situation the moves work very well even without striking.

what i do find a little strange is how much nowadays tsd and skh bunch are relying on aikido principles and techniques(more or less)- no problem i would think that is fine and normal except for the fact that i was under the impression that skh had already mastered taijutsu to the level that he not need rely on aikido as much...
i still respect the advancement, but i do believe that bbt is also a kind of aikido- being very versatile, it even has an edge because it stresses freedom...the ultimate power.

also i read the writing where skh mentions his unique and interesting experiences with

 

[kaizasosei]

although i try not to get too mixed up, since youth-a little later than bbt(around the time when segal was getting big),
i have come to use many techniques of aikido...done at the right time on the correct person and situation the moves work very well even without striking.

what i do find a little strange is how much nowadays tsd and skh bunch are relying on aikido principles and techniques(more or less)- no problem i would think that is fine and normal except for the fact that i was under the impression that skh had already mastered taijutsu to the level that he not need rely on aikido as much...
i still respect the advancement, but i do believe that bbt is also a kind of aikido- being very versatile, it even has an edge because it stresses freedom...the ultimate power.

also i read the writing where skh mentions his unique and interesting experiences with the doshu of aikido.
It's great to get insight from who cares even wherefrom- but i find it a little odd at this stage.

i used to consider which to focus on- aikido or bbt..and after very much thinking- i came to the conclusion that bbt is more free and i would say more realistic..and when aikidoists get medievil on you, it can be more complicated dealing with it...many aikidoist, often say **** like 'that's not aikido'- without really having to understand.

that is why i don't go back to aikido anymore...cause they(certain individuals in particular-but the whole community is too selfabsorbed and not 100% peaceful in my opinion.- so it's like- see ya! i'll return one day just to visit once nature has run it's course- if i feel like it.
actually, when i think of one person i would love to downright slap the sillysauce outof her for being so annoying- two or three others, i would love to take on in a friendly free competition just to settle a few things.
no bull yelling out for me to stop or complaining that i am not doing the more right.
i am grateful for learning much from them as well as at the seminars with the sensei from japan, but enough is enough--it's the tone that makes the music.
it's not that hard for me to care for or love my enemies', but i have little tollerance for the great enemy, which is evil and destructive ignorance itself.

please realize this is my story of one community which i shared some experiences with. - communities vary. some might not even have any real skills whatsoever. the community i am mentioning is quite skillfull i will agree, but i don't think they have much experience with fighting and are not as tough as they would like to think. -
the sensei from japan are much better- mentally speaking--but ofcourse this causes their techniques to also be lacking in true effectiveness.
what i think is weird also, is that i sense that a few individuals higher up appear to me to be jealous of the jsensei. i'm guessing they are audaciously and very mistakingly begining to think they are on the same level as the jsensei... not even close






j

 

[kaizasosei]

sorry in my dazed state of no sleep for so long....i made a mistake.

the techniques that are lacking are not those of the jsensei..it is the this community that is lacking in my opinion.

 

[kaizasosei]

i respect the jsensei and i think i understand them...

it's really a pain to reread the post...i wish i could erase or edit that mistake!!!

 

[Blotan Hunka]

alright, Im going to just come out and say this even though some Aikidoka will probably not like it. Perhaps you do see it because in Judo you have a really resisting opponent. while I like and respect Aikido and would like to study it, I have some serious doubts that its going to work when the **** hits the fan. it will probably work in police type situations for takedowns/controlls of people who arent coming at you like a MMA fighter. I have never seen an Aikido sparring session where there wasnt some "understanding" between those participating. Like a double leg takedown followed by a ground n' pound.

Does it make Aikido "worthless" or will aikido skill not help you defend yourself? NO no no, im not saying that. I do think that Aikido is kind of "stylistic" and to expect a "real" fight to go down like that randori...well I dont believe thats going to happen.

Just my .02. No offense intended.

 

[tempus]

Not sure how this would add to the discussion. In the version of Aikido I take, depending on belt level, with me beign the Uke I swing to take your head off. If the technique is done properly I am thrown half way across the room or receive a very hard fall. Should the person miss out of the technique I usually end up with a knee to the groin, or some type of strike, and then an Aikido technique. NGA is probably more Aiki-jujitsu (excuse spelling) then traditional Aikido, but if it worked for guys on the battle field a few centuires ago, I cannot see why it would not work now. Also, my joints tell me that the techniques do work if done correctly.
I also try to resist at much as possible when a technique is done wrong to simulate a real attacker (i.e. Keep swinging, grabbing, kicking, wrestling, etc...) and my body pays a hard price for that.

We do not compete, but we do attack lines and rondori. End up learning a lot from these.

Just my 2 cents.....

 

[theletch1]

So, the Original Poster bases his thoughts on aikido on only what he knows from someone addicted to a hallucinogenic drug and another bases his on a bad time with one small piece of the aikido world. Study the art until you get a decent understanding of it and you may open your eyes a little. Trusting a man who believes that LSD gives him a better understanding of reality is just as big a blunder as believing that LSD will help him understand reality. Find a reputable dojo and ask if you can watch a class or two or even participate in one. I know that it may seem impossible to throw someone with out putting a lot of muscle into the technique but when uke is using all of his muscle to take your head off it becomes a simple matter of shifting balance.

As for the "community" that you had a bad time with Kaizasosei I am truly sorry that you found yourself in a bad group. However, judging everyone in the aikido community from the experience with a handful of them would be like me judging everyone in the TKD community by my experiences with a serious McDojo here in my area. I will not judge all by the actions of a few. Keep in mind that there are many different sub-styles of of aikido and not all of them trace their lineage back to Ueshiba nor do many that do resemble each other to an exacting degree.

Blotan Honka, When you see someone in the video link do a break fall out of a technique it is because not to would mean a devastating break of one or more of the joints involved. The pain compliance aspect of the techniques do, indeed, work well in a LEO aspect. However, that pain is metered out only as much as is needed to control the individual. The more resistance offered by uke the more pain you are able to apply with the technique right up to and beyond the breaking point of the bone or joint. When you see someone roll out of a technique it is because that is where the energy led them and because they know what is going on. Those who don't know what is going on will be doing a face plant into the pavement. Yes, to many aikido looks fake simply because there is no competition and the argument becomes "well, it'd never work against a resisting opponent." I'm here to tell you that it will, indeed, work against a resisting opponent when done at higher levels. There are tons of dirty tricks hidden in aikido that can be pulled out when needed. Does it take longer to use on the street? Sure. Is it the most effective street level SD system out there. Well, your mileage will vary depending on you and the instructor and which exact sub-style of aikido you use. Sorta sounds like any other "Which MA is best" debate doesn't it?

If you aren't impressed by videos, great, go find a dojo and train. Feeling is believing. I believe that if you look back through the threads in this sub-forum you'd be hard pressed to find many threads stating the aikido is the greatest art in the world. You won't see aikido-ka walking around with aikido kanji plastered on every piece of clothing that they own. We are generally an unassuming lot (with some exceptions) and that is part of the ai of aikido. We have several class members who actively train in hard style arts and cross train in aikido. They came in thinking that there was no way that if they threw a planted attack at an aikido-ka that they could be thrown. They found out quickly that it isn't always pretty or nice when an experienced aikido-ka makes you move. It works, folks, not for everyone but for those that devote the time and effort into the training that anyone that loves their art does it will.

 

[Yari]

....... I have never seen an Aikido sparring session where there wasnt some "understanding" between those participating. Like a double leg takedown followed by a ground n' pound.
.....

I got to agree that you dont see it to often. But its there.We pratice freeform, that means anything goes. Other dojos have there own forms.

There is nothing called an aikido technique. It doesn't exsit. Aikido is the mentality/philosphi. You can have two styles doing the same technique, the way it's aikido, is to look at the users mentality, and the way he uses the "technique".

Aikidos philospfi is that of seeking non-violence conflict resolution. You'll not see any stage fights.

Aome Aikido styles emphesize on the philosfy of Aikido, others on entrance of a technique(on how to go into a conflict), others again on how to use the force that is in a conflict, and others again work on atemi ... and so on.

So you'll have many different styles of Aikido working on there own thing. Poeple reconize this, since everbody has there areas of expertise, and areas that they need to work on. So (at least in the area I live) people "shop" around..... changing styles and becoming more and more proficient of becoming a whole Aikido praticiner.

My point being that my guess is that you havn't seen aikido, just a little part of it.

/Yari

 

[morph4me]

I have been training in NGA for 20 years, and I know that it works against resisting attackers. I have also been to aikido dojos and have seen people flying accross the dojo because they were "supposed to" and I, too, have a problem with that kind of training. It's unrealistic and gives people a false sense of security. I prefer attackers that give realistic attacks and show me where my weaknesses are. In aikido uke either goes with the throw so he can fall safetly, or he doesn't with unpleasant results. The issue is one of why he's falling, because of lack of balance which is sometimes caused by the pain of having a joint manipulated in a way it isn't meant to go.

I'm not here to try to convince anybody of anything, but I will say that judging an art, any art, based on the exposure to one practioner who belives in the power of hallucinogens to define his reality is narrow minded, and as far as competition, my aikido got infinetly better when I stopped trying to compete and yielded to the energy my uke's attacked me with.

 

[kaizasosei]

As for the "community" that you had a bad time with Kaizasosei I am truly sorry that you found yourself in a bad group. However, judging everyone in the aikido community from the experience with a handful of them would be like me judging everyone in the TKD community by my experiences with a serious McDojo here in my area. I will not judge all by the actions of a few. Keep in mind that there are many different sub-styles of of aikido and not all of them trace their lineage back to Ueshiba nor do many that do resemble each other to an exacting degree.

yes, thanks for the tip... i'm glad i didn't get tooled on more for this negative and aggressive post. however, i could get away with it due to your superb knowledge and understanding.

there is no doubt that aikido, being one of the main arts of my interest philosophy, stiking and moves, is a supreme martial art.

thing is, it is true that their are many different styles out their as well as many different yet related aspects that need be focussed on to achieve a well rounded'understanding.

about the community i was refering to...i do feel slightly bad for expressing myself like this now, actually i have tried to express myself but it only caused an escallation of things if not a really unpleasant silence. so often i wish i had at least said just a few more things. :whip1: too bad there is always some kind of snyde retort...

still i think we shared some interesting times. i would like to clearly state two things. 1. that i know just how vast the difference can be in different peoples aikido. 2. the japanese sensei are very amazingly good! the above writing contained some errors due to some kind of mistake made during editing or deleting. - actually, the natives are good too, but it's an attitude thing of just a few people who seem to have the some kind of position with which to get angry and start grunting for what are to me incomprehensible reasons.

sorry i didn't mean to waste time mentioning it...just telling of my decision to spare myself the torture and move on. it's not really that rewarding-
after all, i can practice aikido by myself or with any other people i choose to.

thanks again.. sorry again for being offensive.


j

 

[Robot Jesus]

So, the Original Poster bases his thoughts on aikido on only what he knows from someone addicted to a hallucinogenic drug and another bases his on a bad time with one small piece of the aikido world.

Actually you misunderstand. Perhaps I over emphasized on the anticdote. I don’t base my opinion of aikido on the stoner, though his ramblings do not aggrandize aikido. I base it mostly on youtube videos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search=

I would never attack someone like that. When entering grappling range grabbing someone’s wrist is not a strong hold. When you hold the wrist you opponent has just as much control of the situation as you. A better place to grab is the elbow, your arms give you greater leverage and you take leverage away from your opponent. How I would attack would probably be to stay at the opponents level, either shoot for a double leg (in this case more of a lift and shove than a real take down) or try to get around him as in a kneeling position in order to move he would need to rise on his knees; giving me a second or so to push the attack.

So basically I feel this guy is a ****y attacker and so I think this video is a work.

But I get the same feeling from every aikido video I see.

Another thing that’s been bothering me. In judo we are taught that there are four parts to a throw. The first is you body positioning, second is kuzushi meaning your opponents balance and therefore also his position. Thirdly is the execution of the technique and lastly is the follow-through.

Every judo video I’ve seen seems to takes the first two for grated. Every uke seems to just barrel into a throw and then go limp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEi-Snqt5B4

I don’t want to go into a blow by blow but I will give my impressions.

At about the 0:09 the tori stuns the uke with a blow to the chest, not certain how hard one would need to hit to make that work. Biased on how much the uke was stunned and my admittedly limited experience getting hit the tori would need to be wearing brass knuckles.

0:12 I don’t train in boxing but I do watch a lot of it, and I’ve never seen a hook like that. The power of a hook is derived from circular motion derived from a combination of torso twist and pushing off sideways with the same foot as the hand being used. What the uke appears to be doing is applying forward momentum to a circular punch so he has momentum going in two different directions, no wonder he falls.

0:15 nothing wrong with that punch other than the range it was thrown. It’s a long range haymaker, it’s a punch used at long range not something thrown while closing the distance.

I could go on but I think you probably get my point.

I did though find something interesting what looking for aikido vids on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

this looks good actually, the boxing’s not too wonderful but it you can see effort being shown, would be better if they got an actual boxer. Most importantly though this is organic and dynamic, the puncher wins some exchanges and the grappler wins some exchanges. There is not a real uke, just like in a real fight.


And finally, can anyone recommend a good aikido place in Calgary Alberta Canada.

P.S. its not possible to be addicted to a psychotropic substance, although one can defiantly go on a binge. The body just never develops a dependency.

 

[Robot Jesus]

p.p.s. thanks to every one for not turning this into a flame war, I know my opinions are provocative but do try to keep a cool head.

 

[morph4me]

p.p.s. thanks to every one for not turning this into a flame war, I know my opinions are provocative but do try to keep a cool head.

That's one of the great things about this forum, no flame wars, intelligent disagreement and respect for the opinions of others.

 

[Yari]

Actually you misunderstand.

That's OK. I can live with that ;-) let's find out what is misunderstood.

Perhaps I over emphasized on the anticdote. I don’t base my opinion of aikido on the stoner, though his ramblings do not aggrandize aikido. I base it mostly on youtube videos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search=

I would never attack someone like that. When entering grappling range grabbing someone’s wrist is not a strong hold. When you hold the wrist you opponent has just as much control of the situation as you. A better place to grab is the elbow, your arms give you greater leverage and you take leverage away from your opponent. How I would attack would probably be to stay at the opponents level, either shoot for a double leg (in this case more of a lift and shove than a real take down) or try to get around him as in a kneeling position in order to move he would need to rise on his knees; giving me a second or so to push the attack.

So basically I feel this guy is a ****y attacker and so I think this video is a work.

But I get the same feeling from every aikido video I see.

So to sum up, you feel that watching Aikido videos show you that the attacking and (maybe) usage of Aikido isn't up to real SD or fighting.


Let me ask you... what do you think the guy in the video is showing?

I don't know what he IS showing. What I know is that he is using techniques from the Aikido curriculeum, and this is an Aikido demostration. So I could guess that he is showing Aikido principles, and that he is showing them slowly so people can see what the principles are. This is commenly done by Aikido people.

Most of the Aikido i know of uses/has the possiblity to use atemi/break arms/legs/neck, ground work. But aikido emphesizes on non violent solutions, so you'll see in demostrations the optimal solution(which is the wish for nonviolent solution).

I'm not disagreeing that there are styles (no matter which style you look at), that have groups and individuals that emphesize on different aspects of the style (personal growth, fun, sword usage), and such things don't get trough watching a vid.

What you see in a vid is only a picture, a flat copy of a little part of of the universe(style/person), that judging based and that is the same as judging a book by the first word on the cover.

Aikido is many different aikido styles, so even basing a judgment on Aikido on 1 style isn't that valid.

I just might sound a bit harse here, sorry for that. But I hope to get the understanding forth that Aikido is more than just "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search="

/yari

 

[MrFunnieman]

I did though find something interesting what looking for aikido vids on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Q8ShKpM1Q

this looks good actually, the boxing’s not too wonderful but it you can see effort being shown, would be better if they got an actual boxer. Most importantly though this is organic and dynamic, the puncher wins some exchanges and the grappler wins some exchanges. There is not a real uke, just like in a real fight.

I thought this was cool too. I don't currently study Aikido, but I think this would be great training. Any martial artist would benefit if they cross-trained a little. Bring a boxer to the dojo and see how the art would have to be adapted. Certainly a jab doen't have a lot of committed energy and other tricks would have to be used to increase the momentum. I wish the guys in the video continued until the boxer was subdued. It looked like they would try a technique out and if it failed they would start over. I would have kept at it until I made something work. You don't get a chance to start over in a real fight.

 

[kaizasosei]

the aikiboxing was interesting. i just think that the aikiguy needed more big takedowns like like sweeps and big trips..also, he is not doing enough irimi for such a opponent coming forward so strongly. he should go in explosively and put arm to opponents face...

some things were quite aiki- i liked when he pushed the opponents chin gently to take him down. -main moves- mushadori- not very common in aikido-but more with bbt,xkan or kobudo. also he'd bend the boxers back to take him down
once he gets a kotegaeshi wristlock but doesnt use body so much to make it work all the time...easier said than done -it's hard to implement bodymovement well when the opponent is following so closely.. that is why it would be good to use some striking also to create the right distance or respect area.
also, when someone is going really fast or hysterical or just faking some intensity, the otherside tends to slowdown a bit to adjust and to be able to perceive any real danger. i think that is a very crucial point for all fighting. once one perceives danger but cannot know exactly where it is coming from, one starts to do things like worsen posture, look away turn around as to flee or cover head with hands or even drop guard alltogether.
as i see it the spirit of aiki is the spirit of all fighting and humancommunication.


there were a couple of situations were felt the aikiman could have implemented certain other moves. like when the boxer was behind him, he tried for a seoinage but i think it might have been better to step behind the boxer.
also the main point i think that should be looked at is this; it's not easy, but one can see that to do efficient henka, you have to stop at some point.
for example, the few times that he pulls the boxer down ikkyostyle, i think it would be good to try and hold the opponent like this for a short while...that means, there is no direct goal like trying to get the opponent down right away. but once he's trying to get up or once one has felt just where he is placing his balance and energy.

i liked how the twopartners harmonized with one another being quite sportive.
it's funny, on one side it has to be aikido, you don't try to grab. the person grabs you. but in realilty, it is necessary sometimes to get a good hold.

i think the best tip is to practice as many many different techniques and their principles and then train to have the calmness yet swiftness to implement them effectively.

i believe, realistic aikido must be trained with the spirit of cutting the opponent down..not aggessively but defensively not allow even a mm that could result in serious injury or trapping of self.
aside from knowing a few techniques that i believe would work well in a few situations, without striking or the possibility thereof, i don't think i could do much better than the aikiman. when it comes to trying to grab and takedown somebody. plus, i bet he knows more techniques of wrestling or freemoves, just didnt get to using them.

one more thing, who says that getting the person down is the ultimate goal of aikido...i would think staying safe and balanced would be more important.

j

j




j

 

[amir]

The problem with the first vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lcw1C3iAx4&mode=related&search is rather simple, I see the Aikido, but where is the MMA? (and I practice some style of Aikido).

But, I think you should blame yourself here. This is a lesson about YouTube and conclusions based on it. Neither of us knows who gave that label to this Demo, and we can both guess that person did have an agende and possibiliy even took one part of a classical Aikido Demo and placed it out of the original context (I would be surprised if the demnstrator thought he was showing Aikido vs MMA).


I happen to know a lot about the Vid you liked:

The people in it are examining thier abilities and posting about it in Aikiweb. As you can read there, they are not vetran and do get a lot of criticisem, partially as a matter of attitude, but also lots of technical comments. Personnaly, I would not consider this to be aikido, only a rather poor attempt at it, showing Aikido techniques with poor timing and without any control over the fight.


Amir

 

[theletch1]

I think the biggest problem here for the OP is one of ignorance. Not stupidity, mind you, but just basic ignorance. Cool thing about the difference between ignorance and stupidity is that ignorance can be cured by the infusion of knowledge, stupidity is for life. As others have stated viewing youtube and forming an opinion about an entire style is actually counter-productive. Aikido is a patient man game. Not just in the mindset of how long it takes to learn but in the actual technique itself. RJ, your profile says you're a yellow belt in judo. From this I'm gonna surmise that you've thrown and been thrown in the dojo often enough to begin feeling that split second when your uke is off balance enough to execute the throw. Sooner or later you'll get to the point that you will feel that without thinking about it. That is the essence of aikido technique, feeling energy. You can't feel what the folks in videos are feeling so you aren't able to really tell what uke's reaction would be in real life. Go to a dojo, ask to train and learn a little of the art first hand. That's really the only way to allay your misgivings.

If you are getting what you want from judo why worry so much about what works for other people? I've known lot's of folks that have tried several different arts before settling on the one that suited them best. I studied kempo for a couple years and while I was proficient at it it just didn't click as naturally for me as aikido does. There are things kempo practitioners can do with their art that I never could no matter how much I trained and the reverse is true as well with me and aikido. No art, no artist, no technique is perfect. If any of them were then that would be the only thing out there. Self defense, martial arts and spiritual paths are all very much a personal thing and you must find what suits you and accept that others will be suited to other arts and techniques.

 

[kaizasosei]

check it out!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG_tnefyOcc&mode=related&search=

j

 

[kaizasosei]

ueshibasensei said that in real life sitiuations, atemi or striking should make up 70% of the aikido'.

before ueshibasensei passed away, many people tell that he tried in vain to rename aikido by changing the chinese character for harmonizing or meeting (ai) into love(ai)- but the student were so powerful at the time that they either resisted or themselves could not overcome as the ball was already rolling



j