Why don’t you see aikido used in judo?

[Robot Jesus]

I see aikidoka throwing grown men like ragdolls. Why don’t you see judo fighters adopting aikido throws like we did with wrestling throws?

 

[theletch1]

Well, to an extent you do. The entering and redirection of energy in judo is very similar to aikido. The big difference that I see is how the energy is handled once you've gotten control of it. The aikido-ka doesn't want to bleed off any more energy than is absolutely necessary to effect the throw and will use the principle of projected energy to break ukes balance while the judo-ka will use the principle of a lever and fulcrum to a greater extent to effect a throw.

 

[tntma12]

Very well put Letch. There are many similarities, but different philosophies(sp?) between the two styles.

 

[Robot Jesus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8DJWKI28c

what I’m saying is; count the ippon’s.




there are two possible interpretations to this video.

One is that this is what aikido can do and no aikidoka in the world wants a gold metal.

Or

This is not what aikido can do.

 

[theletch1]

That IS what aikido can do when the attack is thrown with intent to take your head off. Judo competitions are seen from the stand point that both parties know the same thing and are therefore not attacking with the intent to knock out their opponent. Aikido works great with an attack that is meant to harm you. When a planted attack or an attack that is not committed is thrown the aikido-ka will use certain dirty little tricks to make uke move in the proper direction. These tricks don't work so well in competition as they would deal out injuries to your training partner that would make for a short class.
I believe that you are confusing the goals of the judo-ka as being the same as those of the aikido-ka. Competition is anethema to the mindset of aikido, so, no, there are no aikido-ka in the world that want a gold medal because there is no competition in aikido. I'm not sure from your posts if you are at a point where you doubt the principles of judo or if you doubt the effectiveness of aikido. I assure you that both arts are very well suited for what they are designed for. While they both use a certain set of basic principles at their core those principles are applied differently for very different reasons.

 

[Makalakumu]

In my experience, I've met a bunch of judoka who were also aikidoka and the skills DO directly transfer. A JUDOka can use aikido in a JUDO tournament, but aikido isn't judo. Aikidoka don't train for competition.

 

[tntma12]

That IS what aikido can do when the attack is thrown with intent to take your head off. Judo competitions are seen from the stand point that both parties know the same thing and are therefore not attacking with the intent to knock out their opponent. Aikido works great with an attack that is meant to harm you. When a planted attack or an attack that is not committed is thrown the aikido-ka will use certain dirty little tricks to make uke move in the proper direction. These tricks don't work so well in competition as they would deal out injuries to your training partner that would make for a short class.
I believe that you are confusing the goals of the judo-ka as being the same as those of the aikido-ka. Competition is anethema to the mindset of aikido, so, no, there are no aikido-ka in the world that want a gold medal because there is no competition in aikido. I'm not sure from your posts if you are at a point where you doubt the principles of judo or if you doubt the effectiveness of aikido. I assure you that both arts are very well suited for what they are designed for. While they both use a certain set of basic principles at their core those principles are applied differently for very different reasons.

Awesome post. Very well said

 

[arnisador]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr8DJWKI28c
there are two possible interpretations to this video.

That isn't clear to me.

In Aikido, nothing happens if no one attempts an attack. That's good--it's self-defense and no violence is the best possible outcome.

In Judo, nothing happens if no one attempts a throw. That's bad--it's a sport and no activity is the worst possible outcome.

The judoka both know the same material. Like boxers, they have studied the sport's techniques and one another's favorites. Each is hoping to be the one to make the next-to-last-mistake in this sporting match. They have differing strategies but comparable skill sets for the same goal.

The aikidoka and his attacker are mismatched in every way, however. There is an attacker and a defender; one has the goal of winning and the other of surviving/escaping; and they are almost surely trained (if at all) in different techniques.

Aikido is not meant to work in a Judo setting. Judo can be used for self-defense but is overwhelmingly practiced as sport first and foremost. It springs from a similar philosophy but meets different requirements. One might as well ask why a family car and an eighteen-wheeler aren't the same. Both were designed by mechanical engineers from a similar knowledge base and general philosophy, but for different situations and hence using different design criteria. The basic similarities are implemented in noticeably differing ways.

Judoka, aikidoka, collegiate wrestlers, and Greco-Roman wrestlers, among others, all throw people around to some extent. But they use the right tool for their rules/situation.

 

[ejaazi]

It could be as simple as they are two different styles, both in concept and application.

 

[Victor Smith]

Except when you have a 7th dan in Judo studying Aikido. Check out the last 1/2 of this clip.

 

[amir]

I see aikidoka throwing grown men like ragdolls. Why don’t you see judo fighters adopting aikido throws like we did with wrestling throws?

Because Judo is not Aikido, it is a separate M.A.

Many Aikido techniques are not allowed in Judo, this has very wide implications, since it also limits the counter options.

Further, you are comparing Aikido practice \ demonstrations with Judo competitions. Had you examined Judo demonstrations, you would have also seen large grown people thrown all over the mat.


Amir

 

[Robot Jesus]

That vid was labeled randori so I assumed it was.
Can someone point me to aikido that isn’t a demo?

 

[theletch1]

Here is a link to a video of one of the newly minted sho-dans at my dojo doing a little randori. It isn't multiple attacker randori in that the ukes are taking turns attacking but it is a little bit of the flow that can be seen in aikido.

 

[jks9199]

That vid was labeled randori so I assumed it was.
Can someone point me to aikido that isn’t a demo?

Unless someone has a camera crew documenting their life 24/7, I think it's unlikely that you'll see aikido used "for real." If it's been filmed, the odds are that it was probably a demo somewhere...

However, if you hunt around YouTube enough, using terms like Japanese Police Aikido, you might find some relevant stuff.

 

[Robot Jesus]

Here is a link to a video of one of the newly minted sho-dans at my dojo doing a little randori. It isn't multiple attacker randori in that the ukes are taking turns attacking but it is a little bit of the flow that can be seen in aikido.

Forgive me if I’m being dense but the uke don’t seem to be resisting the technique, and are just going with the throw?

 

[morph4me]

Forgive me if I’m being dense but the uke don’t seem to be resisting the technique, and are just going with the throw?

If you've ever had the experience of pushing on a door that someone was opening from the other side it is very much like that for the attacker. The attackers goal is to land his attack, the aikidoka removes himself from the line of the attack, taking the attackers balance and redirecting his energy, there isn't much opportunity to resist.

 

[kilo]

This blog seems to fit on this thread http://mokurendojo.blogspot.com/2007/10/aikido-vs-judo.html

 

[kaizasosei]

this is what i always think to myself...although i did notice some sumothrowers getting into the aiki. but maybe that came from those gaikokujin like Asashouryu, who are very tough and learned mongolian wrestling from their family.

actually i really used to think just along those lines, but now i came to realize a something...remember aikido does not ignore striking. in a real case, anyone who can truly throw people around like ragdolls, could do much more if they went all out. i guess if they don't lose their head and manage to controls self sufficiently.
when the opponents are grabbing one another both really physically strong, it is often much harder or impossible to perform good technique. that is why it is good to be able to have the kind of relationship with the uke that if you suddenly raise as though to strike to face... they would sense that and react, that is if they have the sense or need to.
that also is at the heart of aiki...that is more than throwing people. everything is aiki. aiki is more than just things moving around- aiki is a kind of communication in all things even inanimate.

j

 

[Robot Jesus]

I didn’t want to get into this, but I have a very low opinion of aikido. Maybe its because the only aikidoka I know believes LSD gives him a deeper understanding of reality, but I just don’t trust it.


Lets look at the “randori” vid that was posted

Whale yes I have had those “opening door” moments before they lasted a fraction of a second. Whereas that vid shows I think I would get out of in a second. Because that’s all it takes to make or break a throw. I’m not trying to insult anyone but there hasn’t been a convincing argument.

What it comes down to is competition. It is the fountain head of understanding and advancement in every facet of life.

Biological evolution= competition : the week genes die and the strong genes prosper

Capitalism= competition: the strong goods and services prosper and the weak die\

Philosophy= competition: the strong arguments prosper, the weak die (does anyone argue non metaphorical Heraclites anymore?)

Martial arts= competition: weak techniques die and the strong techniques prosper.


I don’t see how something sophisticated can come without competition.

 

[Yari]

Your stating that when something wins it's the best. At least it wins within ceratin rules and boundries.

So your stating also that if I win the argument, that Im right. Would you then follow me, and my philosofi?

I think not. Because it's also a question of going for something you think is better, and stikcing to it. Becasuse you think it's best. You might be losing some "fights", or maybe all your fights. But you'll inspire others to be better people and maybe in the end change the world.

You started to ask why judo poeple dont' do Aikido. And they do and they dont.

When doing aikido, we work with the "energi", which they also do in Judo. In Aikido we also workd with the extenting of "energi", which they don't do so much in Judo. But this i interssting, because when a judoka gets extented "energi" the throw will look grasoius and nice. It'll look like no effort had been used. When you then look at the fight bewteen to judoka, you'll notice that the throws are not very clean or grasious.

The same can be said about Aikido. When you start working with the "energi" moving and changing directions, it wont look like the basics you see. But the principles will still be the same.

/Yari