Why do people not understand

[Rich Parsons]

But Ralph that is my problem they cannot be a WTF BB, the WTF does not issue certificates? Guess I am still angry over people way of talking.

Terry, I do not study TKD in any form. I have friends who did. I also remember people talking about getting WTF Certified and KKW certified as well. They would take the WTF test and then get a local certificate from the local master instructor at some large price tag, and then if they paid even more they could get it officially recognized in Korea with the KKW certificate.

So I think a few bad apples have made it worse.

 

[Dana]

I must admit that it really miffed me when local schools in the ND, SD and MN area would say they were "WTF" certified schools and instructors. Some even said their gup ranks were WTF certified! Mostly, they were just clueless and reacting to what their seniors told them.

Not to nit pic, but in the mid to late 1980's, the WTF did actually process dan certificates for a short time, so yah, I am "WTF certified!!" I've never said that though. I guess with the KOSM (Kukkiwon Overseas Members) now, some folks can finally say they have KKW-certified schools.

Dana

 

[terryl965]

I must admit that it really miffed me when local schools in the ND, SD and MN area would say they were "WTF" certified schools and instructors. Some even said their gup ranks were WTF certified! Mostly, they were just clueless and reacting to what their seniors told them.

Not to nit pic, but in the mid to late 1980's, the WTF did actually process dan certificates for a short time, so yah, I am "WTF certified!!" I've never said that though. I guess with the KOSM (Kukkiwon Overseas Members) now, some folks can finally say they have KKW-certified schools.

Dana

Dana it was one year the WYF certified people and then never again and the KKW took over all processing. You can never ever be WTF certified instructor because the KKW is the only org in Seul Korea offering the instructor course for TKD.

 

[Dana]

Hey man, it is one of my pet peeves also. But you could be a WTF-certified dan for one year! LOL I once called a school in my state who advertised WTF certified etc. and such and I told him he was doing false advertising. He informed me that his GM from Fargo insisted upon it and that conversation was pretty much over.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by Earl Weiss Perhaps a better question. Why does there need to be 2 organizations?

Yes and No, the US open you can and it is a rated WTF event but in some othe international event you have top be KKW certified.

So, the question remains. Clear KKW and WTF are "Sister" orgs.

Again, why is it neccessary to have 2 orgs? Since KKW issues rank, (and please correct me if I am wrong) they would be the ones setting technical standards for performance and rank requirements. Why would these same standards not apply to competition.

As one group they could choose to have some open competitions. ITF has done this with it's "World Cup" .

So, anyone have an answer? Does it harken back to the day when KKW certified rank for people doing all sorts of systems but need to have a single set of standards for competition so needed another org. to do this?

 

[punisher73]

I'm non TKD, but just curious about this.

If a school is a member of the WTF organization. And you get your blackbelt through that school, is this where the confusion lays? You would assume that the blackbelt was WTF since the school was associated with them. Is it one of those where people are just paying the money and never really ask the questions or assume something? It just seems weird to me.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I'm non TKD, but just curious about this.

If a school is a member of the WTF organization. And you get your blackbelt through that school, is this where the confusion lays? You would assume that the blackbelt was WTF since the school was associated with them. Is it one of those where people are just paying the money and never really ask the questions or assume something? It just seems weird to me.

Schools are not members of the WTF. National governing bodies for sport tkd are members of the WTF.

 

[terryl965]

Originally Posted by Earl Weiss Perhaps a better question. Why does there need to be 2 organizations?




So, the question remains. Clear KKW and WTF are "Sister" orgs.

Again, why is it neccessary to have 2 orgs? Since KKW issues rank, (and please correct me if I am wrong) they would be the ones setting technical standards for performance and rank requirements. Why would these same standards not apply to competition.

As one group they could choose to have some open competitions. ITF has done this with it's "World Cup" .

So, anyone have an answer? Does it harken back to the day when KKW certified rank for people doing all sorts of systems but need to have a single set of standards for competition so needed another org. to do this?

Earl basically they wanted to keep the sport aspect seperate from the TKD aspect. Hence came the WTF to guide and keep the sport side growing. The WTF over see's all the National governing bodys that participates in international event and all the way up to the Olympics, World games and so forth.

 

[punisher73]

Schools are not members of the WTF. National governing bodies for sport tkd are members of the WTF.

That is what confused me. The local TKD school (doesn't seem to be McDojo) advertises the WTF logo on their site, so I assumed that it was like other MA organizations and that it meant that they were a part of that organization. No mention of the KKW at all anywhere.

So, if I am a member of the ITF, is that for a national governing body also or indivdual schools?

 

[oftheherd1]

A lot of people probably still think you have to register your hands--or in your case, feet--as deadly weapons. They just don't know.

A college friend (whom I hadn't seen in maybe six years) and I met up with each other some years back and chatted some. It turns out he had joined the Army, got into the MPs, and had an assignment to a site in Ethiopia. One day he was working the desk and a man came in to register his hands with the MPs, as deadly weapons, because he said he had a black belt in a martial art. My friend laughed as he told me the story, since he wasn't so easy to fool. He made the man show his hands, and his knuckles were not calloused, so he sent the guy away. Couldn't pull the wool over my friends eyes that easily. But in the 50s and 60s, such myths were common.

What would you guess is the real reason for taking fingerprints? Simply marketing, in order to justify high fee costs, or something else?

That question ran through my mind as well. One has to wonder how the charade has gone on unchallenged for any length of time. It's kind of sad really. I fear for the level of teaching since the teacher of the school must have zero respect for her students to pull that on them.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Earl basically they wanted to keep the sport aspect seperate from the TKD aspect. Hence came the WTF to guide and keep the sport side growing. The WTF over see's all the National governing bodys that participates in international event and all the way up to the Olympics, World games and so forth.

I think it was a Jackie Chan movie where he said something like "I hear the words coming out of your mouth, but don't understand.
Why is a seperate org. needed to "guide and keep the sport side growing." The KKW could not do this because? Or Conversely the WTF could not do both because?
Now, I am not trying to be difficult. Has anyone else ever asked this sort of question. Seems like the elephant in the room.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So, if I am a member of the ITF, is that for a national governing body also or indivdual schools?

The ITF has operates differently. The ITF is the International governing body. It regulates both minimum technical standards for rank as well as governs competition. The ITF issues rank certificates.

Within each country there may be one National Governing Body under the ITF (Sometimes affiliated National Associations as well) that are the recognized members of the ITF. Those National bodies must adhere to the minimum ITF standards and may implement addittional standards as well so long as they do not conflict with ITF regulations.

Individuals are members of the national Organizations (or affilliates).

 

[chrispillertkd]

Within each country there may be one National Governing Body under the ITF (Sometimes affiliated National Associations as well) that are the recognized members of the ITF. Those National bodies must adhere to the minimum ITF standards and may implement addittional standards as well so long as they do not conflict with ITF regulations.

Well, that depends on which ITF you're talking about. This is an accurate description of what ITF-V does. ITF-C allows multiple national governing bodies per country (called INO's, or Independent National Organizations) as well as individual MO's (Member Organizations which are composed of single DoJang or groups of DoJang usually under a single Master).

As far as I know, only ITF-NK still allows only one NGB per country.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Mr. Spiller,

INO, NGB, NA, AA, tomato, potato. Didn't want to gum up the works with 2 much 411.
And no one would think NK would allow more than one.... Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Mr. Spiller,

INO, NGB, NA, AA, tomato, potato. Didn't want to gum up the works with 2 much 411.

Master Weiss, yes the acronyms get to be a little much after a while, don't they? I was just pointing out that ITF-C actually has multiple national bodies in many countries. (The single NGB set up was one of the things many people found frustrating about dealing not so much with the ITF but with the people who were in charge in a particular country and I rather like the INO system, persoanlly.)

And no one would think NK would allow more than one.... Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Yes, that's a shocker isn't it!

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

no....

grand prairie....


drawing a blank here.

Arni we have a school here in Grand Prairie that tells there people at brown belt she has to take there finger prints and send it off to the CIA for record keeping, because now they are a lethal weapon. My GOD what people believe.

 

[punisher73]

The ITF has operates differently. The ITF is the International governing body. It regulates both minimum technical standards for rank as well as governs competition. The ITF issues rank certificates.

Within each country there may be one National Governing Body under the ITF (Sometimes affiliated National Associations as well) that are the recognized members of the ITF. Those National bodies must adhere to the minimum ITF standards and may implement addittional standards as well so long as they do not conflict with ITF regulations.

Individuals are members of the national Organizations (or affilliates).

I can see how people get confused now.

 

[Metal]

Plus in some countries, like Germany for example, you have to go through the National Taekwondo Union which is affiliated with the ETU and WTF for dan testings. They conduct the regional and national dan testings and they issue the dan certificates. Then on top it's even more confusing when in the dan application form they ask you wether you'd like to receive the national certifiicate or a WTF certificate or both. ^^

With the WTF certificate they mean the Kukkiwon certificate.

So if even the governing national body of Taekwondo confuses WTF and Kukkiwon, what do you expect from those who never do any research and just listen to what their instructors tell them? ;-)

When I was a kid my kup cerificates had the WTF logo on them. Later certificates in the mid 90s even said "The testing was conducted under the Guidelines of the World Taekwondo Federation". My club back in the day wasn't a member of the German Taekwondo Union though and therefore was not affiliated with WTF. They went with an independent instructor to obtain Kukkiwon certificates for the black belts though. Nevertheless the club never had anything to do with WTF since we weren't part of the National Taekwondo Union and on top of that we did ITF style sparring. ^^




Anyway, I heard that WTF terminated their contract with Kukkiwon due to pressure from the IOC. The IOC basically disagrees that someone who wants to compete in the Oympics (in this case Taekwondo) needs to obtain a certificate which is issued by a private company (=Kukkiwon).

So basically athletes now only need to be members of their national Taekwondo Union which is affiliated with the WTF in order to compete in WTF tournaments.

I dunno if that's true or not and didn't find anything online yet.

 

[troubleenuf]

Used to belong to that organization. The Korean born "Great Grandmaster" never taught what the WTF and Kukkiwon were or were not. He and his head guys keep their students pretty well isolated from the rest of the martial arts world and do a pretty good job of regulating what the students know and dont know. For instance a few years back I took over a school were the students were appalled when I asked if they had hard copies of the patterns. They told me that they were not allowed to have any books or videos and if they were caught with any they would loose their ranking. I couldn't believe that in the US people would actually let someone dictate to them what they could have access too?!

I must admit that it really miffed me when local schools in the ND, SD and MN area would say they were "WTF" certified schools and instructors. Some even said their gup ranks were WTF certified! Mostly, they were just clueless and reacting to what their seniors told them.

Not to nit pic, but in the mid to late 1980's, the WTF did actually process dan certificates for a short time, so yah, I am "WTF certified!!" I've never said that though. I guess with the KOSM (Kukkiwon Overseas Members) now, some folks can finally say they have KKW-certified schools.

Dana

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What would you guess is the real reason for taking fingerprints? Simply marketing, in order to justify high fee costs, or something else?

Hopefully its for something like confidence boosting since they're close to BB?I doubt it, it's probably marketing but I really hope the person doing it believes she is doing good with it, even if it is misguided and deceitful.