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MichiganTKD

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I would never, under any circumstances, allow a 16 year old to test 4th Dan. Much like I would never promote an 8 year old to 1st Dan. Doing so insults every student above a certain age who has attained that Dan.
In my opinion, you should not promote anyone under the age of 25 to 4th Dan. Reason: By age 25, you should be out of school, independent, with a good job, and responsible for your own life. How can you have a Master Instructor (which is what Tae Kwon Do 4th Dan is) at 16? A 16 year old is still in school, cannot drive, cannot drink, cannot vote, lives at home. In short, is in no way independent. And you want to promote them to the rank of Instructor with the power to judge other students, including adults? Impossible.
 
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Littledragon

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MichiganTKD said:
I would never, under any circumstances, allow a 16 year old to test 4th Dan. Much like I would never promote an 8 year old to 1st Dan. Doing so insults every student above a certain age who has attained that Dan.
In my opinion, you should not promote anyone under the age of 25 to 4th Dan. Reason: By age 25, you should be out of school, independent, with a good job, and responsible for your own life. How can you have a Master Instructor (which is what Tae Kwon Do 4th Dan is) at 16? A 16 year old is still in school, cannot drive, cannot drink, cannot vote, lives at home. In short, is in no way independent. And you want to promote them to the rank of Instructor with the power to judge other students, including adults? Impossible.
Don't complain to me compain to the Kukkiwon about it. ;)
 

MichiganTKD

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Your Instructor still makes the recommendation. Regardless of what is allowed, any Instructor who would recommend a teenager to the rank of 4th Dan is irresponsible and does a tremendous disservice to Tae Kwon Do, or any martial art. My Instructor has made decisions concerning his Organization (age, time between testings etc.) that did not follow exactly the guidelines of the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon establishes minimum guidelines.
And before you prattle on about "Well I've won these tournaments and I'm this champion in these events", it doesn't matter. How good your technique is only partially matters for testing. You may have fantastic technique, but if I think you are too young to test, guess what? You wait until you're older. If that means 5-6 more years, so be it.
This is the problem with having very young children practicing. They start out at 5 years old, and want to be black belts (or their parents want them to be black belts) when they're 8. Then they expect to be 2nd and 3rd Dans when they're 12 or 13 thinking "well I've been practicing since I was 5." Well guess what? You're still too young.
You really think 5 year old or 8 year old is doing the same Tae Kwon Do as an adult or older student? They are not. They are doing more of a recreational form of Tae Kwon Do that their bodies and minds can handle. Then to think that their ability or talent matches that of an older student is absurd. The idea of a teenager being able to successful carry out the duties, reponsibilities, and symbolism of a Master Instructor is laughable. Would you elect a 16 year old as President? I don't think so.
You know, if I were judging at a testing and a 16 year old boy (and a 16 year old is still a boy) was seated next to me to judge, you know what I would do? I would get up and leave. Any organization that would promote a teenager to Instructor doesn't deserve my presence.
 

terryl965

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MichiganTKD If memory serve me right you belong to the Kukkiwon and the WTF right. Not questioning your Opion, each there own, but if you support the Kukkiwon why do you question there guidelines. And remember there have been kings and Queens of nations by the time they were 16 and we have doctors that are gifted and get all the requirement to practice medicine by the time there 12 of course not on me, My dr. needs to be my age atleast. GOD BLESS AMERICA
 

MichiganTKD

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Nobody says I have to accept all their guidelines. My Instructor certainly doesn't. I can't imagine him allowing a 16 year old student to test for 4th Dan. And even if he did, I can't imagine our other Instructors accepting it.
 
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Littledragon

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MichiganTKD said:
Your Instructor still makes the recommendation. Regardless of what is allowed, any Instructor who would recommend a teenager to the rank of 4th Dan is irresponsible and does a tremendous disservice to Tae Kwon Do, or any martial art. My Instructor has made decisions concerning his Organization (age, time between testings etc.) that did not follow exactly the guidelines of the Kukkiwon. The Kukkiwon establishes minimum guidelines.
And before you prattle on about "Well I've won these tournaments and I'm this champion in these events", it doesn't matter. How good your technique is only partially matters for testing. You may have fantastic technique, but if I think you are too young to test, guess what? You wait until you're older. If that means 5-6 more years, so be it.
This is the problem with having very young children practicing. They start out at 5 years old, and want to be black belts (or their parents want them to be black belts) when they're 8. Then they expect to be 2nd and 3rd Dans when they're 12 or 13 thinking "well I've been practicing since I was 5." Well guess what? You're still too young.
You really think 5 year old or 8 year old is doing the same Tae Kwon Do as an adult or older student? They are not. They are doing more of a recreational form of Tae Kwon Do that their bodies and minds can handle. Then to think that their ability or talent matches that of an older student is absurd. The idea of a teenager being able to successful carry out the duties, reponsibilities, and symbolism of a Master Instructor is laughable. Would you elect a 16 year old as President? I don't think so.
You know, if I were judging at a testing and a 16 year old boy (and a 16 year old is still a boy) was seated next to me to judge, you know what I would do? I would get up and leave. Any organization that would promote a teenager to Instructor doesn't deserve my presence.
The Kukkiwon's policy is based on experienced and how many years one has done if, if I have been a 3rd for a certian amount of years I will be allowed to test for fourth. Don't say my Masyer is irresponsible, he is the Maryland State Head Coach and the Collegiate USA Junior Team Coach, like I said we are the 3rd best Tae Kwon Do School in the U.S., we produce champions so we are not a school that just gives belts away. We have one of the top competition TKD teams in the WORLD. We have 2 people going to the OLYMPICS, yes the OLYMPICS.
 
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Littledragon

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MichiganTKD said:
Nobody says I have to accept all their guidelines. My Instructor certainly doesn't. I can't imagine him allowing a 16 year old student to test for 4th Dan. And even if he did, I can't imagine our other Instructors accepting it.
I really don't know why you are so concerned with this. The Kukiwon's rules always me to test for fourth if I have been 2rd for a certain number of years. If you don't like it that I am 4th don't start making a big deal about it. If your school is so good tell me the name and instructor and let me see if I have heard of them, we know the schools that are the best ranked by the USTU.
 

MichiganTKD

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Oh, so being a TKD tournament champion qualifies you to be a 4th Dan Master Instructor? All that means is you are a well conditioned athlete.

As I said before, how many years you have practiced and the number of years between testings is only part of the story. Trust me, being a Master Instructor requires a maturity and mindset that a 16 year old boy is incapable of. If just being a tournament champion was the requirement for 4th Dan, there'd be a lot more 4th dans running around. Being a tournament champion looks nice on a resume, and it certainly can be used as part of your credentials down the road, but it does not qualify you to be an Instructor.
And yes, your Instructor is irresponsible for recommending you to 4th Dan. You come off as a shrill little kid trying to defend him by the way.
 

terryl965

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MichiganTKD said:
Nobody says I have to accept all their guidelines. My Instructor certainly doesn't. I can't imagine him allowing a 16 year old student to test for 4th Dan. And even if he did, I can't imagine our other Instructors accepting it.
First off not trying to change your mind I like your opions you are very strong with them. My question is how can you follow an organization if you particuly do ot accept there guidelines, and I relize everybody has different views when it comes to being the right age, me for one have never understood you can fight for America freedom at the age of 18 but yet you can not have a drink until the age of 21. You're ld enough to get killed in war but can't have a drink silly, but thats the rules of our great nation. Just looking for your reasoning behind your opion. Thank look forward to your reply. GOD BLESS AMERICA
 

MichiganTKD

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Good question.

Our Grandmaster is 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do. What that means is that, although we are affiliated with the WTF, by virtue of his rank and position in the Tae Kwon Do community, he is not absolutely bound to accept all their rules. For example, if we were strictly USTU or WTF, and especially if he were not 9th Dan, we would not have as much autonomy as we do.
As far as free fighting, we follow WTF rules. However, even though the WTF may allow the promotion of a 16 year old to 4th Dan, he would not. That is his choice. Let's say that, hypothetically, the student decided to go over his head and protest not being allowed to test due to his age. That would be a grave insult and would most likely result in expulsion.
Basically, his organization his rules. Usually WTF or Kukkiwon rules for testing are obeyed (use of forms, sparring rules, length if time). However, our Grandmaster also reserves the right to use rules at his discretion. He cannot go under Kukkiwon guidelines (testing below a certain amount of time) but he can most certainly go over. A 16 year old teen may technically be allowed to test 4th Dan (Kukkiwon guideline), but it is highly unlikely that he would follow that. Guess what? The student has no choice. Noone else can recommend him. If I choose not to allow my student to test for whatever reason (age, time between testing, lack of ability), they can't test. Unless they quit and go somewhere else, they have no choice.
 

terryl965

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MichiganTKD said:
Good question.

Our Grandmaster is 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do. What that means is that, although we are affiliated with the WTF, by virtue of his rank and position in the Tae Kwon Do community, he is not absolutely bound to accept all their rules. For example, if we were strictly USTU or WTF, and especially if he were not 9th Dan, we would not have as much autonomy as we do.
As far as free fighting, we follow WTF rules. However, even though the WTF may allow the promotion of a 16 year old to 4th Dan, he would not. That is his choice. Let's say that, hypothetically, the student decided to go over his head and protest not being allowed to test due to his age. That would be a grave insult and would most likely result in expulsion.
Basically, his organization his rules. Usually WTF or Kukkiwon rules for testing are obeyed (use of forms, sparring rules, length if time). However, our Grandmaster also reserves the right to use rules at his discretion. He cannot go under Kukkiwon guidelines (testing below a certain amount of time) but he can most certainly go over. A 16 year old teen may technically be allowed to test 4th Dan (Kukkiwon guideline), but it is highly unlikely that he would follow that. Guess what? The student has no choice. Noone else can recommend him. If I choose not to allow my student to test for whatever reason (age, time between testing, lack of ability), they can't test. Unless they quit and go somewhere else, they have no choice.
MichigaTKD very well put thank you for explaining a little more and you are absolutely right your GrandMaster get to make his decission on wheather or not to Test anybody he has earned that right. Again Thanks and GOD BLESS
 

MichiganTKD

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People accuse me of being hardheaded, closeminded, and arrogant. I am not. I have a certain way that I think is right and I follow that.
Being very openminded can be liberating and allow freedom to try things. But it can also lead to chaos because you don't know what the right way is. Staying on the set path has kept me out of trouble and provided me with direction. At least I know where I stand.
 
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Littledragon

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MichiganTKD said:
Oh, so being a TKD tournament champion qualifies you to be a 4th Dan Master Instructor? All that means is you are a well conditioned athlete.

As I said before, how many years you have practiced and the number of years between testings is only part of the story. Trust me, being a Master Instructor requires a maturity and mindset that a 16 year old boy is incapable of. If just being a tournament champion was the requirement for 4th Dan, there'd be a lot more 4th dans running around. Being a tournament champion looks nice on a resume, and it certainly can be used as part of your credentials down the road, but it does not qualify you to be an Instructor.
And yes, your Instructor is irresponsible for recommending you to 4th Dan. You come off as a shrill little kid trying to defend him by the way.
I think it is wrong of you to judge somone by their age. I devote my time to teach every single day, kids adults etc.. I have requests from parents asking me to teach their kids. I read every single book and information on martial arts so I contain knoweldge when a student ask me a question about martial arts and most important life. Yes I am young but we are all students and forever learning, for being a martial artist for 25 years I thought it tought humility, so you should not judge anyone. I am not a 4th degree black belt yet so even if I am thats not your concern. Stick to what you will do and I will stick to what I will do.
 

MichiganTKD

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There are two things a 16 year old is not qualified to do: Test for Master Instructor, and give advice about life. What do you know about life? Because you read some book?
It doesn't matter how many years, how good you are, and if you teach others. You are still 16 years old. You may protest otherwise, but the fact is a 16 year old kid is not mentally, psychologically, or socially ready or mature enough to be a 4th Dan. Just from the way you respond and the tone of your postings, you make it obvious you are just a kid.
Congratulations on being allowed to teach. I taught as well when I was 16.
 
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Littledragon

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MichiganTKD said:
There are two things a 16 year old is not qualified to do: Test for Master Instructor, and give advice about life. What do you know about life? Because you read some book?
It doesn't matter how many years, how good you are, and if you teach others. You are still 16 years old. You may protest otherwise, but the fact is a 16 year old kid is not mentally, psychologically, or socially ready or mature enough to be a 4th Dan. Just from the way you respond and the tone of your postings, you make it obvious you are just a kid.
Congratulations on being allowed to teach. I taught as well when I was 16.
I don't make any judgements about you so don't make any about me. You have no clue about me and know nothing.
 

clfsean

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Just to add fuel to the fire... I started MA when I was 11 in 1981. I studied MooDukKwan TKD. There was no separate kid's class & I had to play with the big kids. I studied, practiced & advanced pretty well for my age. When I was 14 or so I reached Red Belt 1st Degree. My instructor (5th Degree) pulled me off to the side & asked me how old I was & when was my birthday. I told him. He shook his head, gave a little click with teeth & said "Enjoy the practice time. You're not 16, no black belt". End of discussion. So I spent the next 18 months or so teaching, training & working hard. The fact somebody under 16 "gets" a black belt nowadays just annoys the crap out of me. Feel lucky you've gotten as far as you have. When I started, it was a no go. There were no "Black Belt Clubs" or "Junior Black Belts" blah blah blah... no kiddie daycare Karate... nada.

Also I've been studying a lot longer than you've been around, I'm just now getting full control of myself, let alone any martial art. Don't rush and don't assume you're ready to be called Master. You need another 10 years or so to get in the neighborhood....
 

jfarnsworth

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MichiganTKD said:
I would never, under any circumstances, allow a 16 year old to test 4th Dan. Much like I would never promote an 8 year old to 1st Dan. Doing so insults every student above a certain age who has attained that Dan.
In my opinion, you should not promote anyone under the age of 25 to 4th Dan. Reason: By age 25, you should be out of school, independent, with a good job, and responsible for your own life. How can you have a Master Instructor (which is what Tae Kwon Do 4th Dan is) at 16? A 16 year old is still in school, cannot drive, cannot drink, cannot vote, lives at home. In short, is in no way independent. And you want to promote them to the rank of Instructor with the power to judge other students, including adults? Impossible.

I have agreed with everything you have said in this thread. :asian: You definately aren't alone.
 

Shogun

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I am almost 19, and would'nt think about being promoted beyond Shodan (I Do Japanese arts, though), unless it was honorary. I had a friend who claimed 3rd degree black belt (TKD) at 15. Ha Ha Ha .......is all I could say. MAYBE 1st black... but If I was a TKD instructor, I wouldnt promote to 1st black until 16. In my Aiki style, testing for 5th Kyu (first test) can take as long as 2.5 years. I have been training for about 2 years, and arent ready for the test. its equivelant to brown belt in other arts. We even wear a Hakama at 5th kyu.
 
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ParrotheadTPA

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I've been doing TKD for about 8 months., I am a Gold Belt, should be testing for Orange soon. I attend a school run under US Chung Do Kwan.
 

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