Who's Taekwondo on this Board – Rank, Years?

[Dirty Dog]

I thought WTF set the rules, and hence "standards" for sparring. As a result of that understanding, I don't disagree with someone who says they practice WTF-style TKD; the KKW-grading schools I have seen spar in WTF rules, and focus their training on that ruleset (e.g., little practice on knee kicks or head punches, since they are not allowed in tournaments).

So you define a style by a sparring ruleset and nothing more?
I guess I teach a whole bunch of styles then, since we spar under more than one ruleset.

A style of MA is a complete system; not just one small fragment.

 

[TrueJim]

I think what Gwai Lo Dan is saying (I think) is that a Kukkiwon-style school doesn't necessarily have to use WTF-style sparring in order to be a Kukkiwon-style school. For instance, they could practice Taegeuk poomsae and Kukkiwon-style techniques, but not wear chest protectors while sparring. So a person could say it's a WTF-style school to denote the fact that they do WTF-style sparring in the school.

Now that I think of it...couldn't even an ATA or ITF school practice WTF-style sparring, if they wanted to? It'd be odd, but not impossible?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

No I don't define the style uniquely by the sparring.

My post flows what I believe is an erroneous statement of yours. Taking out all the stuff in the middle, which was part of my post, you said "Kukkiwon ...sets standards for .. sparring....The WTF.. does not "

I don't believe that is a correct statement. Correct me if I am wrong, but it IS the WTF that sets the rules for sparring that KKW style schools participate in. And those sparring rules definitely impact the schools' teachings.

My point of my post is that the WTF heavily influences KKW style schools, so I don't get my knickers in a knot if someone talks about WTF style schools, even if there are not exactly correct.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't believe that is a correct statement. Correct me if I am wrong, but it IS the WTF that sets the rules for sparring that KKW style schools participate in. And those sparring rules definitely impact the schools' teachings.

Consider yourself corrected. The KKW sets the sparring standards for KKW schools. The only rules the WTF sets are those used in tournaments sponsored by the WTF, all of which are, by definition, aimed at training specifically for Olympic competition. That is all. Nothing else.
Others may choose to follow these standards, and if they're a sport-oriented school it's quite possible they will do so. KKW schools almost always include sparring under the WTF rules, but many (most?) also spar under other rules.
For example, we are a KKW school (we're Moo Duk Kwan, but we also award KKW Dan ranks to those who wish them, and by the KKW standards, that makes us a KKW school).
We do not spar under the WTF rules within our system.
It may be correct to say you practice WTF sparring. It is not correct to say you practice WTF taekwondo.

 

[andyjeffries]

So there is (or was) a distinct ITF style and a distinct WTF style in that respect, and so it's OK for me to refer to it in that way. ITF/WTF is also a useful shorthand for referring to other differences such as which poomsae you are taught, etc. but perhaps that isn't common in the US.

In the UK, 'sport taekwondo' refers to clubs primarily concerned with sparring for the Olympics and not interested in taekwondo as a martial art.

I'm in the UK as well, and it's still inaccurate to call it WTF Taekwondo. There are people who do WTF sparring, but palgwae forms (which haven't been an accepted part of Kukkiwon for 30+ years), so saying "I do WTF Taekwondo" is still inaccurate unless, you are a pure sports player.

This terminology however tends to be used more by clubs in British Taekwondo, because they are led by the often inaccuracies inherent in that organisation. For example, if you attend events like the World Taekwondo Grand Prix that they host in Manchester each year, the announcer (and national team members) always says "Thai-kwondo" completely ignoring the correct pronunciation of "Teh-kwondo".

 

[andyjeffries]

Consider yourself corrected. The KKW sets the sparring standards for KKW schools. The only rules the WTF sets are those used in tournaments sponsored by the WTF, all of which are, by definition, aimed at training specifically for Olympic competition. That is all. Nothing else.

I'm going from memory (so I'd need to check) but I'm fairly sure the Kukkiwon defers to the WTF for sparring rules in both the Examiner Course textbook and the Master Instructor textbook.

 

[Sarah G]

So are we at least agreed that 'WTF-style' refers to sparring using WTF rules?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm going from memory (so I'd need to check) but I'm fairly sure the Kukkiwon defers to the WTF for sparring rules in both the Examiner Course textbook and the Master Instructor textbook.

They do not "defer" to them, as that wold indicate that the WTF is the greater authority on KKW sparring, which obviously is not true.
They do endorse the WTF rules. Hardly the same thing.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So are we at least agreed that 'WTF-style' refers to sparring using WTF rules?

No. Especially when coupled with the claim that it's 'not sport taekwondo', given that the WTF ruleset is just abut the absolute worst possible sparring rules for anyone training for anything other than the very limited Olympic tournament circuit.
"WTF sparring" or "sport taekwondo" would be correct, when referring to sparring under the WTF rules.

 

[TrueJim]

I'll confess to being one of those people who thinks it's okay to say "WTF-style" for the same reason that I think it's okay to say Kleenex when you mean "tissue." That having been said though, I too was confused by the description of "WTF-style but not sport taekwondo". I'd actually be interested in learning more about the approach and curriculum at that school. In particular, I'd be interested in learning more about how their approach is non-sporty. (I'm not being sarcastic...I'm sincerely curious and interested.)

 

[Sarah G]

...the WTF ruleset is just abut the absolute worst possible sparring rules...

That's a very strong opinion, may I ask why you feel this?

I'd love a link to the Kukkiwon's sparring rules, if that exists? I can't find anything on their website.

 

[TrueJim]

I'd love a link to the Kukkiwon's sparring rules, if that exists? I can't find anything on their website.

Great minds think alike. I looked too and didn't find anything. I gave away my copy of Kukkiwon textbook (to a friend in need!) but I don't recall anything in there about sparring rules either...but that could just be my faulty memory.

 

[Flatfish]

I can't say whether it is the worst possible sparring rule set, since I do not know what other bad rule sets there might be but I am NOT a fan of them either. I do enjoy sparring, don't get me wrong but the rules are way too limited: no punches to the head (which among other things encourages players to not keep their hands up), punches to the torso are very difficult to get points for, no takedowns, more points for flashy techniques than making solid contact etc. They make TKD look much more limited than it is.

 

[TrueJim]

I think I've mentioned this before, I'm really keen to see what karate will look like in the Olympics. It seems to me that taekwondo has opted to try to look more "theatrical" by emphasizing head-height spinning kicks. Is that a good thing, is that a bad thing? I don't know...it's a thing.

Arguably, the alternative would be to aim for something that's less "theatrical" and more "realistic." I'm guessing that's the approach Olympic karate will take?

So here's my question: which will sell more tickets? At the Olympics, the real key is to sell tickets. A sport doesn't get to stay in the Olympics if nobody is buying tickets. So do audiences want to see big theatrical performances, or more realistic demonstrations? Which is more entertaining? I'm really curious to see.

 

[Flatfish]

Good point, but just take a look at what WTF sparring looked like before electronic scoring was implemented. In my opinion much more impressive than what we are seeing today. Good contact and I would say more variety of techniques compared to the "one-leg-hopping-jab-kick" (I made that up) that is so prevalent today.......IMO not entertaining at all. Doesn't have anything to do with the limiting rule set but the electronic scoring made things even worse I think.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's a very strong opinion, may I ask why you feel this?

Try taking it in context next time. The part you deleted, which indicates I'm talking about training for anything OTHER than the very narrow world of Olympic-style competition, was important.

So, are you going to tell me that you think training hands down, no punches to the head, falling down after many kicks is GOOD training for self defense or even competing in any other venue than the aforementioned very narrow WTF tourney format?
Try that in MMA. You'll get killed.
Try it in kickboxing. You'll get killed.
Try it in a self defense situation. You'll get killed. Possibly literally.
Yes, it is possible to overcome habit, but your muscle memory means you will, by default, fight the way you train.
Next time I face someone in a violent confrontation, I really really hope they keep their hands down, and don't punch to the head.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I do enjoy sparring, don't get me wrong but the rules are way too limited: no punches to the head (which among other things encourages players to not keep their hands up), punches to the torso are very difficult to get points for, no takedowns, more points for flashy techniques than making solid contact etc.

Not to mention that the rules encourage competitors to kick at inappropriate distances.

 

[Tez3]

WTF are changing their name.
World Taekwondo Federation is changing its name for obvious reasons

 

[Flatfish]

WTF are changing their name.
World Taekwondo Federation is changing its name for obvious reasons

Nooooooooooo, I'm losing my best party line

 

[Gnarlie]

Not to mention that the rules encourage competitors to kick at inappropriate distances.

Hi RTKDCMB. Can you elaborate on this, I'd like to understand your view.

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