Who will impact EPAK the most in the next 10 years?

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

John: Do you have any links to videos of AKKI Form 1, 2, and/or 3? I am really curious as to how Mr. Mills combined the long and short forms as I think this is a great idea.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
What? No votes for Frank Trejo so far? Didn't he revive the IKC's? Isn't that one of the single largest Kenpo (and Karate) events of the year? Doesn't that count for something?

That's great and it is notable/commendable...but really it's not so "Kenpo-specific". It benefits the martial arts over-all, and for that Mr. Trejo should be applauded. I'm sure it was no small undertaking. But in the end, it's still just one tournament, and I don't see any tournament or all tournaments having THAT great an impact on the future of Kenpo. Also...it does the greatest good for the martial artists of Southern California. Things that some of the others are doing (as well I'm sure as whatever other endevours Mr. Trejo has/is undertaking) reaches further beyond state boarders or over more subjects than just competition.

Having said all this, Mr. Trejo is still one of the big movers in Kenpo I'd think...though I've never had the honor of meeting him. My first instructor did train under him for a time.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
John: Do you have any links to videos of AKKI Form 1, 2, and/or 3? I am really curious as to how Mr. Mills combined the long and short forms as I think this is a great idea.

Sorry man. No can do.

I like the idea too!

Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...ah...OK, I looked.

I don't see anything new, though I do see some unfamiliar terminology.

For example, the thing on the first page, "Structure Governs Function." This look like just an inversion of Henry Louis Sullivan's, "Form Follows Function." And don't the forms teach this anyway?

Glancing down the list on the next page, I also see nearly everything that's familiar. Examples include, "centerline," centerline control," and all the analogies...I mean, I compare Star Block to the way the shields look like ovals around the Enterprise, but that harldy makes me an innovator...

I'd also argue that, "evolution," is a very tricky concept in martial arts. For one thing, as much as I go with historical and cultural change, there is something that's timeless about martial arts.

For another--just to wax theoretical for a moment--the production of something different, or of many different things, is not in and of itself, "evolutionary." It's just different, until questions of environment start to kick in...

Could you maybe tell me what you think is so different from regular kenpoi (whatever that is)? I just don't get it yet...

Thanks.

 

[Les]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
John: Do you have any links to videos of AKKI Form 1, 2, and/or 3? I am really curious as to how Mr. Mills combined the long and short forms as I think this is a great idea.

OFK,

There used to be a video clip of a lady called Percheryl Dawes doing a form on the AKKI Vegas Camp webpage, but it's gone now, because the vegas page is changed every six months.

I may have it on my machine somewhere, if I can find it I'll e-mail it to you.

Les

 

[Les]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Um...ah...OK, I looked.

I don't see anything new,

Could you maybe tell me what you think is so different from regular kenpoi (whatever that is)? I just don't get it yet...

Thanks.

As I know you'll appreciate, it's difficult to explain something like this via the written word, either on here or on the AKKI website.

So here's a suggestion. And I am completely serious.

If you genuinely want to know what Mr Mills is doing, and where AKKI are going, then call Mr Mills and ask him.

His number is (307) 789-4124, feel free to tell him I suggested you call. ( Les Grihault from England)

He can explain it to you much more clearly than myself or Brother John, although John is certainly doing a good job.

Respectfully,

Les

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Um...ah...OK, I looked.

I don't see anything new, though I do see some unfamiliar terminology.

For example, the thing on the first page, "Structure Governs Function." This look like just an inversion of Henry Louis Sullivan's, "Form Follows Function." And don't the forms teach this anyway?

Glancing down the list on the next page, I also see nearly everything that's familiar. Examples include, "centerline," centerline control," and all the analogies...I mean, I compare Star Block to the way the shields look like ovals around the Enterprise, but that harldy makes me an innovator...

I'd also argue that, "evolution," is a very tricky concept in martial arts. For one thing, as much as I go with historical and cultural change, there is something that's timeless about martial arts.

For another--just to wax theoretical for a moment--the production of something different, or of many different things, is not in and of itself, "evolutionary." It's just different, until questions of environment start to kick in...

Could you maybe tell me what you think is so different from regular kenpoi (whatever that is)? I just don't get it yet...

Thanks.

Robert,
As You know I don't study under Mr. Mills but what we have changed as a result of his influance is to completly eliminate the feet toguether position from our art or our lives for that matter. If you think that is not much of a change then so be it. As For what does quick drawing have to do with kenpo... I can only say the methods that make you a faster draw, translate directly to kenpo, and eliminating the feet toguether position is one of them.
Sean

 

[rmcrobertson]

You NEVER put your feet together? Wow.

Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.

I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.

As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
You NEVER put your feet together? Wow.

Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.

I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.

As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?

Being fast and fluttering your arms as if you were fast are not the same thing. The speed we are impressed with is the very first move. If you don't accept that deleteing certain behaviors is going to change your art for the better or worse that is just where your head is at. I gave an example of one change we have made. I'm not attempting to teach you what paul Mills does. I will assert he is training his students to be faster and to be effective against a person whom is fast. This involves paying attention to how close you are to your opponent and not training against step through puches, but punch step throughs. They are faster than step through punches and for that reason adjustments in your art must be made. These little adjustments will mean nothing to you I'm sure. As your biting sarcasm shows, you are not wowed. I'm sure you never plan to meet someone faster just as you never plan to end up on the ground, but you know us, were all paranoid.
Sean

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
You NEVER put your feet together? Wow.

Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.

I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.

As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?

Ever try to be nice to people Robert?
I don't recall this thread being about "What do you not like about certain masters or systems/associations?" Nor do I recall reading any reply asking for your opinion of the AKKI's claims of innovation and progress...which you barely know anything but biased secondhand opinion about...but feel that you can make a judgement on anyway.

Don't judge what you don't know. Don't be snide/condescending and rude...then ask us to explain ourselves further.
Makes no sense.


Your Brother
John

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Brother John
Ever try to be nice to people Robert?
I don't recall this thread being about "What do you not like about certain masters or systems/associations?" Nor do I recall reading any reply asking for your opinion of the AKKI's claims of innovation and progress...which you barely know anything but biased secondhand opinion about...but feel that you can make a judgement on anyway.

Don't judge what you don't know. Don't be snide/condescending and rude...then ask us to explain ourselves further.
Makes no sense.


Your Brother
John

Good point Brother John. Unfortunately, he does this ALL the time, and I dont think it'll ever change.

Mike

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.

I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.

As for the fast draw stuff, OK, I guess. But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?

Only someone who has never worked with Mr. Mills could make such statements.

The most direct correlation between fast draw and kenpo can be found in the technique Obscure Wing, but that's only if you want a no frills, to the point, one-for-one explanation.

How about the way you draw a knife and bring it into play (especially any of the Mills designed knives: fixed blade or folder). I can draw, open the blade (my Mills Folder), thrust into the target, ream the target, and slice out "S-4" in one fluid move.

How about the use of D1/D2 flexion/extension patterns to increase speed while maintaining control? If you don't know how these patterns work with the timing patterns then you won't be able to maximize your striking potential and will more than likely destroy your shoulder and/or elbow (just ask Dan Thiel he screwed up his arm because he thought he knew it all and didn't take the time to learn it right).

How about teaching people to punch in such a way that they can make use of either the upside or downside of the circle? How about simply teaching the students that there is a difference and explaining what that difference is? How about indepth explanations of different methods for generating power (Simultaneous, relayed, or converged), the benefits of each, and every little muscle twitch required to achieve the desired result.

I keep hearing all this crap about eye gouging, fish hooking and groin shots. If this is all you know how to do, then you are getting screwed. Ask for your money back. These are tactics taught in 2 hour women's self defense seminars. So really, if you have been in kenpo for more than a week and your only answer is the above, then you really should find a new school. Isn't anyone teaching you how to punch, how to fire devastating elbows, how to kick, how to strike with speed, power, and effect? No I don't mean showing you that this is an inward crescent or that is a right hook, but I mean walking you through the summation of total body motion required to generate power and speed for each movement.

These are just a few of the things that we are covering in the AKKI. Sure, there are people that just want to learn technique sequences and a few timing patterns, that's fine. However, the material goes far beyond this conceptual level, into a realm of exact sequential progression, targeting, etc.

Can I say that what Mr. Mills is teaching is truly an evolution of the art? No, but I don't ever remember hearing Mr. Mills or any of the AKKI board say that they wanted to evolve the art. Only to increase our proficiency, ability, and knowledge base, through innovation. This is pretty much the bi-line of the www.akki.com homepage, and quite honestly I think they are doing a damn good job. Like I said though, that's just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Robert,
I Think Mr. Mills has done more to eliminate the slap art rep than just about anyone. Fusing all your moves toguether and calling it speed is what is wrong with Kenpo as far as I'm concerned. The idea of sequencial muscle motion not only makes you faster it reduces injury, increases accuracy, and power.
Sean

 

[Les]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Change, or addition and subtraction, are not in and of themselves evolutionary or even revolutionary. They're just changes.

According to my dictionary, evolution is gradual development.

The things Mr Mills is doing are a 'gradual development' of what he was doing within the IKKA. At that time Mr. Mills served as a member of the I.K.K.A. Systems Council (One of only three members) He was also the Regional Representative for a ten state area (region #10).

They were known as the "Paul Mills Family Group" This is WHERE the AKKI evolved from.

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I also wonder why it is that the very folks who are asserting all the evolution don't seem to explain what the evolution is.

As to what the evolution is, a couple of things like the use of D1/D2 flexion/extension patternshave already been mentioned, Did you skip those bits? I'm not going to repeat them all here.

How about the creation of a seperate Club Syllabus. Or a seperate Knife Syllabus.

Both have testing and certification independent to the belt curriculum.

As I said before, it's difficult (for me at least) to describe the changes and development that are going on. But I can tell you that I understand a lot of things since working with the AKKI that I just didn't see before. Also, I move a LOT better now, than I ever did.

Take Sword & Hammer for example: Thanks to Mr Mills I can execute this technique faster, more powerfully, from a more stable (and also more fluid) base. In training I can do all of this more safely too.

Earlier in this thread, I suggested you call Mr Mills yourself and ask him what he's doing.

Did you call him?
Was he able to answer your questions?

Robert, please remember, your mind is like a parachute, it works best when it's open.

Respectfully,

Les

 

[Brother John]

But how would this affect the commonest criticism of kenpo--that it's a slap art, whose practitioners move way too darn fast for effectiveness?

Tell me what you think Robert, was there ever any real validity to this outsiders estimation, the slap art argument?

I personally think it's an argument 100% devoid of merit.
Speed is one of Kenpo's greater assets, not it's liability. Their estimation is based on a lack of understanding. In other words they were judging something they didn't understand.

Understand?

Besides, since when do we go about changing the way we do things just because outsiders "critisize us"?
I don't.

Your Brother
John

 

[Nick Ellerton]

ok ok seriously guys this only comes down to opinion thats all some people think that larry tatum is a wanker, others think huck planas is a wanker. As far as it all goes its only an opinion and they are like buttholes everybodies got one. So instead of looking at what might hapen and who might impact on it all in the next ten years why dont you consider all of those who are involved and not bring it down to a select few. Just accept what happens and live with it either way you guys are extremely passionate about the art and that in essence is the arts future all you are talking about atm is a leader for this passion.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
This involves paying attention to how close you are to your opponent and not training against step through puches, but punch step throughs.

I have been doing those for years. And I have never trained under Mr. Mills. If what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are the same things...

They are faster than step through punches and for that reason adjustments in your art must be made.

Yes they are faster than step through punches, yet i have not found them to be as powerful. Once again if what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are indeed the same actions.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Brother John
Don't judge what you don't know.

Your Brother
John

Good advice!!!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
I have been doing those for years. And I have never trained under Mr. Mills. If what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are the same things...



Yes they are faster than step through punches, yet i have not found them to be as powerful. Once again if what you are talking about and what I am thinking about are indeed the same actions.

My instructor and I don't train under Mr. Mills either. As For you second point. Did you ever hear Mr. Parker tell the story about getting stabbed with a six inch blade as opposed to a twelve? I never said step through punches weren't more powerfull; however, a punch step through will be faster and Knock your *** out all the same. And Step through punches will only be found and taught in a karate studio.
Sean

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
And Step through punches will only be found and taught in a karate studio.

I've worked in juvenile correctional facilities for about 11 years now, I've seen LOTS of minor squables, to fights to riots... and I've yet to see any of these guys do anything that even remotely looks like a step-through punch, and though they are "juveniles" and not trained fighters (well, not most of them at least) the majority of them have grown up in the streets and in gangs where they've been forced to scrap on a consistent basis... So I figure their fights are indicative of a regular street-thug.
It's interesting work.

Your Brother
John