Who will impact EPAK the most in the next 10 years?

[Mark Weiser]

LOL that is true. As I have said on other postings. When I started looking into SGM Parker system and then looked at my Dragon Kenpo. I almost cried due to the weakness of the system. Matter of Fact it is nowhere near "KENPO"

The Person I am studying under and it may cause some feathers to ruffle lol. Mike Acord out of Pittsburg/New Castle area Penn state.

 

[Doc]

A reminder that the word "evolution" has no quantitative value and is neither positive nor negative, and simplistically means "change." Evolution is not always positive nor is it necessarily negative. Commercial motion based Kenpo is by design an interpetive curriculum and any instructor that "changes" or "interprets" the material based on his understanding and knowledge is performing the function Mr. Parker outlined for that material.

The very nature of the curriculum is not cast in stone therefore no one is technically wrong. The good or bad of all teachers, their methodology and knowledge shall be tested against the efficacy of its effectiveness, from the perspective of those who give and accept or reject its worth. Beyond that people are just shouting at fire hydrants. - Move on!

"Experience is the best teacher, but unfortunately it sometimes kills its students." -Ed Parker Sr.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that last post--even worse, I have to disagree in a rather pedantic way.

Strictly speaking, "evolution," is indeed a morally-loaded term: Darwin intended it to convey a sort of, "every day, in every way, all life is getting better," concept, one with a lot of theological baggage. That's one of the problems with strict Darwinian evolution--it's too purposeful. More recently, Gould and others have pointed out that, "evolution," really isn't going anywhere; it's just happening, much as mentioned above.

But this doesn't mean that there aren't pro-survival and anti-survival traits in some given environment. And in fact in kenpo, there do indeed seem to be such things as folks who are just plain getting it wrong--not because they're evolving, but because they're violating basic concepts and principles to make their evolutions. The difference is that in the biological world, the really fatal mutations get screened out very very soon--before birth, in fact.

However, in martial arts we have the ability to preserve certain lethal genes...with BS, with self-promotion, with creating a mystique, with bullying our students, in all sorts of ways. We can--as in business and the military and academia, I'm sorry to say--set things up so, "efficacy," appears to get tested and never really does.

I'm also still more than a little dubious about this, "commercial & motion," vs., "real," kenpo thing. First off, I'm not at all sure when this Pure Kenpo existed. And all tghe way in the other direction, I'd say that this is one of those binary oppositions that we endlessly enact and re-enact in ourselves...

Well, I said it was a pedantic objection.

 

[Kalicombat]

Commercial motion based Kenpo is by design an interpetive curriculum and any instructor that "changes" or "interprets" the material based on his understanding and knowledge is performing the function Mr. Parker outlined for that material.

The very nature of the curriculum is not cast in stone therefore no one is technically wrong.

"Experience is the best teacher, but unfortunately it sometimes kills its students." -Ed Parker Sr.

Doc,
Im not making a statement as to the validity of SL-4, nor am I inquiring to disprove anything, I am merely trying to expand my knowledge base. The things about sub-level 4 that, in my opinion, have never been made clear to the general kenpo public, is how it is so different then what you refer to as Motion kenpo. You do delayed sword as your first yellow belt technique, so do most EPAK schools you consider motion kenpo schools. Your delayed sword has the same series of movements in it as ours does. As a courtesy to an inquisitive mind, please explain the difference between your delayed sword and ours.

When I strike someone I am picking my spot, as are you. I am going for the most painful or vulnerable target to get a specific reaction of either stopping and opponent or to set up my next strike, and so on, and so on. Is it that you have an advanced knowledge of what the strike will do physiologically to an opponent, and we just know that that strike will get the desired effect? Also, the sub level 4 terminology about specific meridians and nerve points which is not normally part of EPAK motion kenpo does provide for a more heady understanding of why striking the inside of someones forearm causes pain, but, anyone that has ever struck an opponent in that spot, has seen his opponent wince in pain.

Also, proper body alignment, and body mechanics should be an important and basic part of anyone teaching the EPAK curriculum. I am not sure if SL-4 practitioners are aware that all quality EPAK practitioners utilize these two very important elements in their training, but I was always taught with these in mind. The mystical chi cultivation and other hub-bub that some people try to pass off as something special is nothing more then science. Its all flesh, bones and energy. Proper body alignment will allow for greater speed, power, and enhance ones technique, but it is nothing more then efficient kenpo.

In closing, while I am in no position to question your system or your teachings. I am merely, as previously stated, trying to expand my knowledge.

Gary Catherman

 

[distalero]

Just to add my swirl in the frosting, by definition if you can E-volve relative to some reference point(s), you can DEvolve by this same point (or another, if you chose). So what it is and what it's doing "rests", if you can use this term for something that is in constant motion, on an commonly accepted set of criteria, and depends on the individual's viewpoint (as Doc mentioned). This is the narrower view, though. If you take the larger view, then you realize that the reference points, and indeed the reference point takers (us) are just as arbitrary, even within our own arguments, because we're in motion too, and won't be here much longer at any rate. So........wait, I think I just made a case for Motion Kepo being ultimately the dominant form. What have I done.

 

[Kalicombat]

Just to add my swirl in the frosting, by definition if you can E-volve relative to some reference point(s), you can DEvolve by this same point (or another, if you chose). So what it is and what it's doing "rests", if you can use this term for something that is in constant motion, on an commonly accepted set of criteria, and depends on the individual's viewpoint (as Doc mentioned). This is the narrower view, though. If you take the larger view, then you realize that the reference points, and indeed the reference point takers (us) are just as arbitrary, even within our own arguments, because we're in motion too, and won't be here much longer at any rate. So........wait, I think I just made a case for Motion Kepo being ultimately the dominant form. What have I done.

Hey man, walk away. Slowly, but with conviction, put down the lighter, and walk away.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Agreeing with "Distalero," (I think...but last time I agreed with him, he was just all gosh-darn cranky about it) the problem is that evolution doesn't have anything at all to do with what's right or wrong, or (in this case) what would work best and allow people to survive in "combat" (Possibly the most-abused word in martial arts).

Translating what Mr. Chap'el wrote a little bit more than a lot, our problem is that in a wholly-commercialized environment, "what works," is a lot more like, "what sells," than like, "what helps you survive on the street." ("Street," being possibly the most-abused word in martial arts.) We're not in 17th-century Japan; we're in a capitalist society, and we don't whip out a sword, we whip out (no, not that either) American Express.

It's quite possible that the form of kenpo that survived our time and evolves, given what our world really is, would end up being the exact equivalent of the duck-billed platypus.

Meaning, of course, no offense to the platypus...

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I have to agree with Clyde on this one. All the different EPAK-based systems out there have done nothing at all except re-arrange the EPAK system. Most have deleted a bunch, and changed the order in which movements are executed in a given technique. They say the have "created" new forms, which, I guess they have seeing as how they have strung together some movements, but that is pretty much what we're talking about here.

What happens when Kenpoist A, takes the curriculum he learned from SGM Parker or one of his first generation students, and changes it, removes the repetitious material, adds some ground work, and calls it "something else KENPO"..... and then, one of his students, we'll call him Kenpoist B, does the same thing after learning Kenpoist A's "new" system, only this time, he removes the repetitous material, adds elements of whatever martial art craze is filling Blackbelt magazine at the time, and calls IT "something-or-other KENPO", different from Kenpoist A's system????? All the while, continuing to call it Kenpo. See where Im going...... Sooner or later, someones gonna say, "hmmm, all these "something-or-other kenpo" systems started with EPAK. Why dont I go look at that system and see what attracted so many people to it". Then you will have the rejuvenation of our kenpo, EPAK, be it the 16 or 24 technique system. Well, if it hasnt yet started, the rejuvenation that is, it is about to. Go to Ebay and look at all the kenpo systems offering free rank certificates with the purchase of "Something-or-other Kenpo" dvd's, videos, and cd-roms.

The most popular home study EPAK off shoot system out there right now, the IKCA, has a problem something like what I described. An original EPAK'er switched over to the IKCA, I believe he was a 3rd black in EPAK when he did so. He stayed with the IKCA for 11 years and rose to the rank of 7th or 8th. He is an 8th on his website, but I dont know if he got that from the IKCA or not. Now, he has created his own system. It has 110 techniques, blending the best of EPAK and the best of the IKCA material. The IKCA system has 55 techniques, EPAK has 154, so now, where are we at. We have a guy adding material to a stripped down version of the original. HMMMMM. WHy not just teach EPAK and cover all his bases.

After this lengthy post, what Im getting at, is that innovation, for innovations sake alone, is futile. I'll give another example of what Im trying to say. My wife, NOT ITALIAN, knows that spaghetti is one of my favorite meals in the world. When we first met, she tried to create some fantastic sauces to attract me and satisfy my spaghetti tooth. She had all kind of recipes, and tried them all. When it comes down to it though, all the same ingredients were in each and every tomatoe sauce she tried. Nothing new, no secret recipes, just the basics; tomatoes, garlic, onions, olive oil, and spices. She didnt create a sauce, but simply rearranged the ingredients in varying quantities. After a few months of pretty terrible experimentation, I told her to go to the grocery store and buy some Ragu. The company that makes Ragu has been doing so for along time with much success. She was dissappointed, maybe at the fact that she couldnt beat a commercial sauce in my eyes, maybe that she'd never see any of her sauces bottled up on the shelves of the grocery stores of America, or maybe at the fact that she realized through her experimentation, that ya realy cant do too much to improve on something that doesnt need improved upon.

Gary C.

I take it you're referring to this guy.

http://www.pbkka.com/


DarK LorD

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Doc,
Im not making a statement as to the validity of SL-4, nor am I inquiring to disprove anything, I am merely trying to expand my knowledge base. The things about sub-level 4 that, in my opinion, have never been made clear to the general kenpo public, is how it is so different then what you refer to as Motion kenpo. You do delayed sword as your first yellow belt technique, so do most EPAK schools you consider motion kenpo schools. Your delayed sword has the same series of movements in it as ours does. As a courtesy to an inquisitive mind, please explain the difference between your delayed sword and ours.

When I strike someone I am picking my spot, as are you. I am going for the most painful or vulnerable target to get a specific reaction of either stopping and opponent or to set up my next strike, and so on, and so on. Is it that you have an advanced knowledge of what the strike will do physiologically to an opponent, and we just know that that strike will get the desired effect? Also, the sub level 4 terminology about specific meridians and nerve points which is not normally part of EPAK motion kenpo does provide for a more heady understanding of why striking the inside of someones forearm causes pain, but, anyone that has ever struck an opponent in that spot, has seen his opponent wince in pain.

Also, proper body alignment, and body mechanics should be an important and basic part of anyone teaching the EPAK curriculum. I am not sure if SL-4 practitioners are aware that all quality EPAK practitioners utilize these two very important elements in their training, but I was always taught with these in mind. The mystical chi cultivation and other hub-bub that some people try to pass off as something special is nothing more then science. Its all flesh, bones and energy. Proper body alignment will allow for greater speed, power, and enhance ones technique, but it is nothing more then efficient kenpo.

In closing, while I am in no position to question your system or your teachings. I am merely, as previously stated, trying to expand my knowledge.

Gary Catherman

Gary:

I will always suggest that someone take no ones word as the existence of this or that mountain. A brutal error of faith is committed whenever anyone person takes some other persons word for a thing. I would encourage you, should you find yourself in So. Cal., to stop by Docs bat-cave sometime and see for yourself the differences between his delayed sword and, well, any other delayed sword out there. I pinned up a rather length post at the kenpotalk beta site regarding some of the differences btw SL4 & "commercial" kenpo. I'll spare the present readers a re-post of that. I would encourage you to give it a glance some time, and relate your thoughts. More importantly, I would encourage you to come by and have a learning experience that I abso-friggin-lutely guarantee will reveal dimensions to kenpo application that you have not seen, & have not occurred to you.

The "acu-flap" (words used to describe a thing) is not what sets SL4 apart. It's what the acu-flap is trying to describe. Text on a screen doesn't really cut it. You gotta see it. And even then, you won't really get what you're seeing, until you jump on the mat, put in the time whittling away at details, and feel it. I have learned Doc's delayed sword...it's about the 6th or 7th version of delayed sword I've been exposed to. And there are enough advanced kenpo concepts embedded in it to keep you re-evaluating and re-interpreting the rest of your kenpo for months and months.

As for having the same cirriculum...find yuor way to te kenpotalk site, and you'll see what thee is to be said about that.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Doc]

Doc,
Im not making a statement as to the validity of SL-4, nor am I inquiring to disprove anything, I am merely trying to expand my knowledge base. The things about sub-level 4 that, in my opinion, have never been made clear to the general kenpo public, is how it is so different then what you refer to as Motion kenpo.

Hey Gary how have you been? Good to see you active here. Many are confused about the “motion-kenpo” term, which I first heard from Ed Parker Sr. Others have posted and said they heard him use the term as well. I only use it to show a distinction in teaching philosophies. His commercial art according to him and most agree is based on “motion” so it speaks for itself. SL-4 like all arts “move” but it is not simply based on “moving” but is deeply rooted in the “how you move” based on the science of efficient human locomotion. Motion-kenpo tells you “what” to do, not “how.” Dynamic human movement requires specific methodologies to execute any action at its most effectiveness and the variables make it fairly impossible to discover the how. There must be a sound educational and physical foundation that doesn’t appear to exist in Kenpo, or the martial arts in general.

You do delayed sword as your first yellow belt technique, so do most EPAK schools you consider motion kenpo schools.

Actually we don’t but, that is a minor point.

Your delayed sword has the same series of movements in it as ours does.

Actually there are mechanisms inherent in the way Delayed Sword is done as I understand it, that do not appear to be a part of “specific kenpo or general martial arts knowledge.”

When I strike someone I am picking my spot, as are you.

Well than I would ask you what are the criteria for what you hit and how do you achieve it?

I am going for the most painful or vulnerable target to get a specific reaction of either stopping and opponent or to set up my next strike, and so on, and so on. Is it that you have an advanced knowledge of what the strike will do physiologically to an opponent, and we just know that that strike will get the desired effect? Also, the sub level 4 terminology about specific meridians and nerve points which is not normally part of EPAK motion kenpo does provide for a more heady understanding of why striking the inside of someones forearm causes pain, but, anyone that has ever struck an opponent in that spot, has seen his opponent wince in pain.

Well anyone can cause blunt force trauma without any training at all.

Also, proper body alignment, and body mechanics should be an important and basic part of anyone teaching the EPAK curriculum. I am not sure if SL-4 practitioners are aware that all quality EPAK practitioners utilize these two very important elements in their training, but I was always taught with these in mind.

I am aware that everyone says they use alignment and structural integrity, however I have never seen anyone who actually did it in Kenpo techniques other than my teacher relative to the level I am accustomed to.

The mystical chi cultivation and other hub-bub that some people try to pass off as something special is nothing more then science.

I absolutely agree with you.

Its all flesh, bones and energy. Proper body alignment will allow for greater speed, power, and enhance ones technique, but it is nothing more then efficient kenpo.

Agreed, but than you explain to me HOW you achieve structural integrity in a neutral bow as an example.

In closing, while I am in no position to question your system or your teachings. I am merely, as previously stated, trying to expand my knowledge.

Gary I never take offense to genuine inquiries and you have always been stand up as far as I have known you over the years online. The truth is, it is really hard to explain in writing. Somewhere in MT archives I have already done this at length, but check out Dr. Crouch’s recent post to the question over on KenpoTalk. He brings a fresh perspective from someone who has studied "other" kenpo along with many other combative arts. That and his advanced degrees relative to human anatomy gives him particular insight. http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23
He was curious like you and made his way to my location last year and we talked, poked, prodded, and pushed until the lights came on and we both learned something.

 

[Kalicombat]

Doc,
Thanks for the reply and more importantly, thanks for referring me to the post on Kenpotalk. This gives me alot of the information I was looking for. Thank you,
Gary Catherman.

 

[Kalicombat]

I take it you're referring to this guy.

http://www.pbkka.com/


DarK LorD

Clyde,
Yes, this is the guy. Kind of strange how he has arrived at creating his own system. I mean, after spending enough time and having the fortitude to learn EPAK, then walk away from it to go with the IKCA and its 55 techs, only to turn around and add another 55???? HMMMMMM. I can understand a person learning IKCA, then exanding out and learning EPAK to further satisfy ones kenpo craving, but to walk away from EPAK for an inferior system like the IKCA makes no sense in the first place.

Gary C.

 

[distalero]

Agreeing with "Distalero," (I think...but last time I agreed with him, he was just all gosh-darn cranky about it)...

...

I wasn't FEELING cranky, so my apologies, sir. The most I can work up these days is "vaguely irritated". I'd never shout at a fire hydrant (mostly because it's a probable 72 hour hold ). I always enjoy your posts, albeit sometimes finding myself yangin' to your yinin' (or, if you're gender sensitive, the other way around). The only point I could mention, though, is that even cranky people can speak the truth (in fact they have a fairly high average), so that would just be a matter of packaging, and not content. Looking forward to your future observations.

 

[Brother John]

I tell you what John, if you, or any other AKKI member, can show me one new technique in your system that isn't already covered, be it technique, principle or concept, and completely different from the system I do, I'll write a retraction to any all statements I've made concerning the NEW AKKI material and will make no further mention of Mr. Mills or the AkKI in print.

DarK LorD

This is all I said:

Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it.

..and then I said that I think Mr. Mills is one such person.
I made my point and stated my opinion. I don't care that you don't accept it. In fact, I knew you wouldn't. But it's not all about You Clyde.

I have no interest in trying to "show" you anything. Quite frankly, though I think you are a good guy in general (having met you, having seen your willingness to help people and also knowing people that know you), I don't see you as being very open to learning anything from someone that you already differ with. IF I cared to prove anything to you (which I don't) I doubt you'd learn a thing, regardless of the 'proof'. I find you to be very closed minded. Not real 'teachable'.

I could care less if you print a retraction of posts/replies about Mr. Mills or the AKKI... the worth and efficacy of each being intrinsic; ie, beyond being effected by your words. Double your posts/replies about either. :idunno: Everyone's gotta have a hobby.

have a great kenpo day (I've always liked that)
Your Brother
John

"There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em." Luis Armstrong

 

[rmcrobertson]

While I agree that Clyde can be very Clydeish, just as I can be very--well, like myself--I have to say that a) knowledge should be pretty much free to anyone; b) you'll be a lot better off simply giving an example or two, then allowing the other guy to look the fool if he's going to.

I've seen this sort of argument before, more than twice, in academics and here in martial arts--and well, to be blunt, it's crap. For one thing, it's a lot easier to simply explain than it is to run around the bush three times widdershins like this; economy of motion, don't you know. So, when one doesn't explain...it's something I catch myself doing from time to time. You know: the summoning of one's own authority, or the appeal to secret knowledge, or the suggesting that the other guy's too much of a dummy--all a kind of bullying, done to avoid saying, "Gee, I dunno." or, "Hm--maybe you have a point."

I meant it: as a pretty good teacher myself, I constantly have to fight against my own desire to assert authority and stay stuck where I am, rather than to change...as witness the entry, "Side-Kicks," on the technical kenpo forum here. I think I'm right, but I'm also trying to avoid re-thinking and improving.

Or to say the same thing another way, whatever the state of one's knowledge, writing that, "You're just too morally and intellectually dumb to understand the perfected state of cosa nostra," tends to make us look like phonies. And this has not much to do with the state of one's knowledge--it has to do with what "Gourmet," calls, "presentation." Looks bad, tastes bad, whatever the truth happens to be. Any kid who's ever got stuck with the slice of meatloaf with the charred end knows that.

Or for the folks who read this and want to start snerting about me--because it's all about me--well, try this one. When you see this sort of discussion, who's describing techniques in detail, tying those descriptions to such things as particular examples from forms and sets and the like, trying to explain particular aspects of kenpo's development over time, attempting to discuss practical issues from teaching to self-defense--and who's throwing cliches around ("to feel is to believe"), appealing to the total authority of their perfect, ineffable knowledge ("when you've been on the street as long as I have..."), sprinkling mystic pixie-dust on the discussion ("if you'd understood chi...."), and if all else fails, attacking the character of the freak who had the temerity to ask a question and expect an answer?

We all do it, when we're not on or feel hassled. Arguably, these tendencies in argument are irreducible: we couldn't talk to each other without slipping into them.

Then there are issues having to do with expression--for example, there are people who know a lot and have no gift for expressing what they know, just as there are people with the gift for expression who don't know jack. Me, I'm still bouncing between those extremes.

 

[MJS]

Guys, rather than take personal shots at each other, lets try to keep this thread on topic.

Mike

 

[sac-ked]

I've only been involved in EPAK for a little over a year now, so I will give you a new student's point of view. My instructor, Tom Rondeau, has impacted MY life with his insights, concepts, ideas, etc. More globally, I have had the pleasure of training with Tom's instructor, Skip Hancock. This was about four months ago when Skip came to the New England region and held training sessions. Skip's website is kenpo2000 and is worth a look. Skip has written books with SGM Parker and continues to refine the art. So my vote is two-fold. First Tom Rondeau, Wyndham County Kenpo Karate Woodstock, CT and more globally, Skip Hancock Kenpo2000, everywhere.


I will be training with Skip next week in Acton, MA and the following week in Woodstock, CT. If you are from the area and would like info of these dates let me know. [email protected]

Brian.

 

[Rick Wade]

After much thought on this :deadhorse topic. I have finally realized who will definately impact Kenpo the most even I have posted previosly That I think it would be Mr. Pick. I am changing my answer I think we will be us. It will be the kenpoist like us adults with about 10-13 years of experience and that keep on training. For then we will be the Seniors. Not being cocky just realistic.

V/R

Rick English
forever the student.

 

[bayonet]

Yeah Rick,

I believe your right. Who else besides us? Who will carry on AK? Plenty of practioners will. But time will tell. AK will carry on through CLyde O' Briant and Rick Jeffcoat and Juan Serrano. So Cal is Covered. But the rest of the country needs other people to carry on such as myself, here in Maui, Visconti and Lamphere and PLANAS. Huk says the base move is the "meat"> 154 techniques and you can't figure out grafting or blending or borrowing, what the hell have you been doing the past 4 years? Please Reply. In my opinion AK is just getting started.

Joshua

 

[Brother John]

While I agree that Clyde can be very Clydeish, just as I can be very--well, like myself--I have to say that a) knowledge should be pretty much free to anyone; b) you'll be a lot better off simply giving an example or two, then allowing the other guy to look the fool if he's going to.

I've seen this sort of argument before, more than twice, in academics and here in martial arts--and well, to be blunt, it's crap. For one thing, it's a lot easier to simply explain than it is to run around the bush three times widdershins like this; economy of motion, don't you know. So, when one doesn't explain.

I disagree, knowledge isn't free, it must be gotten. To do this one must seek it out and obtain it for ones self. That's what I think.
As to your second point Robert, Clyde has gone seeking answers about the AKKI and the way we do things... and he's gotten good answers from better people than myself...but as I said, he's closed to such "examples" or even demonstrations. I was present when many of his questions were answered and many personal demonstrations were given just for him... but he remained opposed. I say for political and egotistic reasons.
So no, giving him examples here would be to further beat my head against a wall.
The argument isn't "crap" as you say... to me, it's not an argument. I said was:

Not all that create change and bring about innovation do so because of a lack of understanding. Some do so due to a surplus of it.

and that I feel that Mr. Mills is one such person. He took strong issue with it and talked about his posts concerning Mr. Mills and the AKKI.
The argument is his.
I don't care if he agrees with me or not and I don't really care if he totally changes his mind about it all. SO...with that in mind, why should I strive to convince him or give 'examples'?? It didn't work in the past, it won't work now. Not because of the message, but because of the bias of the intended reciever.

I only wrote this so that neither you nor others think I'm trying to claim things that can't be backed up with examples. It can.
The willing can learn.
The unwilling cannot.
I don't want to waste any more time w/the later.

Your Brother
John