Who is against this?

[Kacey]

OK... you want to identify the "future criminals." How are you going to do that? What mechanism are you going to use?

Sadly, quite a few states do it by literacy rates in the early grades - why spend money on education when you can build more prisons? (for those who can't tell, there's a great deal of sarcasm in this statement)

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In many states, the prison systems look at the number of students not reading on grade level in grades two, three, or four to determine the number of prison cells to build ten years hence (Lawmakers Move to Improve Literacy, 2001). The fact that the prison system can use this prediction formula with great accuracy should make us all cringe, but the critical point is that if businesses can use educational data for predictions, so can educators.[/FONT]

Also here:

Dr. Grover (Russ) Whitehurst: Yes. Again, the predictability of reading for life success is so strong, that if you look at the proportion of middle schoolers who are not at the basic level, who are really behind in reading, it is a very strong predictor of problems with the law and the need for jails down the line.
Literacy for societies, literacy for states, literacy for individuals is a powerful determinate of success. The opposite of success is failure and clearly, being in jail is a sign of failure.
People who don’t read well have trouble earning a living. It becomes attractive to, in some cases the only alternative in terms of gaining funds, to violate the law and steal, to do things that get you in trouble. Few options in some cases other than to pursue that life. Of course reading opens doors.

And here:

Many states, including Indiana and California, predict the number of prison cells that will be needed in 10 to 12 years by looking at the reading scores of third-grade students today.

And here:

If you want to know how many prison cells to build, look at the number of third graders who can’t read. Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA)

I could keep going... but I think I'm beating a dead horse. My point is that extending the educational process is not going to help the majority of failing students - changing how the education system helps them will do that. And then, of course, there are so many factors that affect success in school that have nothing whatsoever to do with the school that it becomes a chicken-and-egg question: does reading difficulty predict future criminal activity, or does criminal activity stem from the inability to read, and thus to get a job requiring reading? Or is it a totally different issue? Simply because a correlation exists does not make the correlated items causal - likewise, predictive data is not absolute - it is merely predictive.

The problem, as I see it, is that American society has fallen into the trap of being reactive, rather than proactive - way too little is spent on prevention, and way too much is spent on punishment; reverse that, and it might actually work. But further education is not the only method of prevention - it is a piece of the prevention puzzle, but there are way too many non-educational influences to attempt to fix everything through the education system - which, as has been said, is doing way too many things it was never intended to do already.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I am willing to bet that if you worked the streets with me for one month and got to know and deal with these little lost ones your whole outlook would change...

They did teach us and "us against them" mentality develops in Law enforcement; so, I believe you. They do tell us to resist. I just chose not to go to prison as an employee or an inmate.
Sean

 

[bydand]

Some little punk-gang-banger-drug-boy breaks in a senior citizens house robs it and beats the occupant half to death..What do you think should be done??? I 'd love to tell you what I think should happen and it AIN'T COUNSELING but someone would drop a dime on me to the Senior Mods..

I am willing to bet that if you worked the streets with me for one month and got to know and deal with these little lost ones your whole outlook would change...

Hats off to the ones who DO have to deal with the reality of the criminal situation and not just academically deal with this element. It is easy for those of us who sit on the outside looking in to tell those who are there how it looks like something should be done, quite a different story when you are the one dealing with it.

Drac, I would love to hear your thoughts (probably know exactly what you would say anyway) but you are right, you would get at least a rude post warning. LOL

More schools would be great, first 2 years free would be a gigantic waste of money. As much as I would like that having 4 boys myself, the reality is if you don't care enough in High School, you are not going to care in College when you are away from home, away from regular "rules" and nobody standing over your shoulder asking why you didn't do what the Prof asked you to do. If this sounds like experience talking, you would be right. I pissed away my scholarships due to those very reasons, and was asked to leave my first 2 universities even though I had a free ride and high enough scores on entrance exams and IQ tests that universities were calling me and offering spots. I was not a borderline case who had to choose between university or crime to get by, but I would not have been able to go to school without the free ride. Did it help me in the long run? I made some good friends, learned how much I could drink before falling down, and how to piss off an entire university administrative staff; but no, the free 2 years of school did nothing for helping me.

The schooling I got when I had to work my butt off to go, ate Raman noodles by the ton because it was the only thing I could afford in enough quantity to make me feel full, and literally counted pennies to pay for books and gas, is the school that I appreciated and finally grew up to be a productive (or as productive as I am going to get) member of society.

 

[jks9199]

Smarter people than me already know exactly how to do this, its getting the public to ignore the "eye for an eye" justice mentality that is the issue. If I can do that, I would be rich indeed.
sean

Cite 'em. I've got to say that I haven't seen any single reliable predicter for which person would commit crimes. I've arrested people who could literally buy & sell me, and people who would be lucky to have 2 cents, for all sorts of crimes. And I've found many more people who, despite enormous temptation and opportunity, choose NOT to break the law, whatever their education, literacy or personal situation.

In my current assignment, I deal primarily with gangs. As in criminal street gangs, like MS-13, Sur 13, 18th Street, Bloods, Crips, Gangster Disciples, quite a few 1%er motorcycle clubs, and so on. Before I go any further, let me toss one caveat out: Gangs are a highly regional, highly variable phenomenon, even in the so-called national or international gangs. In my area, we see things that a West Coast gang investigator would say are crazy; they see things we'd say are nuts.

With that said, guess what? It's not just poor kids that are successfully recruited into these groups. Many of them are quite literate; more than a few are bilingual. The energy and creativity they put into some of their gang knowledge is astounding; if they'd turn it to a positive venue, the sky's the limit on what they can achieve. (I'm not suggesting that illiteracy doesn't severely hamper one's choices in life; there's no doubt about it that the modern workforce in the US demands a high level of literacy even for lots of traditionally unskilled labor or trades.)

There are some things that are fairly common; we frequently find that they turn to the gang for family support that they don't find at home. But it's often not because the parents aren't trying. We almost always find a "live for this moment" or "live fast, die young" mentality that I almost have to call hopeless. What do we seldom find? Active, informed and involved parents, not buddies, and not parents who deny that their kids can do wrong. Parents that have bothered to teach the kids right from wrong, and held them accountable for their choices. (Interestingly, the gangs often hold their members VERY accountable for choices... And I've already said that I feel that the educational system has been so tied down by extraneous and unrelated crap that it's hard to educate. Hell, some places can't even fail a kid who does no homework, and doesn't pass any tests!)

As for other offenders that I've dealt with over my years in law enforcement? I see the same thing; repeat offenders seldom feel that they should be held accountable; they almost all have some explanation why it was someone else's fault or why they "had" to commit the crime. Very few openly admit that they were responsible and that their choices led them to crime. Some have learned what to say... But few truly accept their own accountability for their choices.

Of course, my sample is small, and inherently biased. I work and live in what tends to be at least middle, and often tending towards upper class areas, socio-economically. There's no control group, and, quite honestly, I don't generally care why someone commits a crime, unless the reason is an element of the offense. It's also limited to those who got caught; a psychology professor of mine made a very powerful argument that we have some very brilliant psychopaths running companies today, and responsible for things like Enron.

Improvements in the educational system cannot help but improve society, in many ways. That, I believe, we can take as a given. But I don't personally believe that educational change alone will significantly impact crime. To do that, we need societal changes, as well. When we have multiple politicians who could not meet the minimum entry standards for law enforcement with regard to integrity, when we have academics and parents seeking to excuse people from their personal responsibility for the choices they make -- we'll have significant societal problems, as reflected in crime rates.

 

[heretic888]

Cite 'em. I've got to say that I haven't seen any single reliable predicter for which person would commit crimes.

jks9199,

It has been awhile since I've looked into this sort of stuff, but there are telltale signs in young childhood that strongly correlate with criminal behavior during adolescence and adulthood. In general, the children with low literacy rates, poor grades, and who have difficulty exhibiting self-control and attention are statistically highly likely to engage in delinquent or criminal behavior in later years.

Once again, Kacey was spot on with her analysis of the situation, in my opinion. We have traditionally been too reactive (i.e., punishment, "eye for an eye") and not proactive enough (i.e., prevention, rehabilitation) in our legal system. Drac's posts pretty much embody the problems here, in that much of the general populace (including many LEO's) aren't concerning with seeing what we as a society can do to stop this behavior at its source, but simply making the people that engage in the behavior "pay". And, of course, once they have "payed" they're back on the streets again --- with all the same pathologies and issues they had beforehand --- only, this time, prison has made them even more dangerous than they were before.

That's how it looks to me, anyway.

 

[Monadnock]

Which is why violent offenders should be locked up and kept that way, with some rehab and assessment to see if they are fit to return at the end of their senetence, not let back onto the streets.

Rapists, molesters and murderers, let 'em rot for life.

As for kids with bad grades, I'm not sure sure the Justice system is the right answer as preventative medicine.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Which is why violent offenders should be locked up and kept that way, with some rehab and assessment to see if they are fit to return at the end of their senetence, not let back onto the streets.

Rapists, molesters and murderers, let 'em rot for life.

As for kids with bad grades, I'm not sure sure the Justice system is the right answer as preventative medicine.

Your right the justice system should not be involved in making sure the kids don't fall throught the cracks. That is the responsibility of the education system; so, fund it.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hats off to the ones who DO have to deal with the reality of the criminal situation and not just academically deal with this element. It is easy for those of us who sit on the outside looking in to tell those who are there how it looks like something should be done, quite a different story when you are the one dealing with it.

Drac, I would love to hear your thoughts (probably know exactly what you would say anyway) but you are right, you would get at least a rude post warning. LOL

More schools would be great, first 2 years free would be a gigantic waste of money. As much as I would like that having 4 boys myself, the reality is if you don't care enough in High School, you are not going to care in College when you are away from home, away from regular "rules" and nobody standing over your shoulder asking why you didn't do what the Prof asked you to do. If this sounds like experience talking, you would be right. I pissed away my scholarships due to those very reasons, and was asked to leave my first 2 universities even though I had a free ride and high enough scores on entrance exams and IQ tests that universities were calling me and offering spots. I was not a borderline case who had to choose between university or crime to get by, but I would not have been able to go to school without the free ride. Did it help me in the long run? I made some good friends, learned how much I could drink before falling down, and how to piss off an entire university administrative staff; but no, the free 2 years of school did nothing for helping me.

The schooling I got when I had to work my butt off to go, ate Raman noodles by the ton because it was the only thing I could afford in enough quantity to make me feel full, and literally counted pennies to pay for books and gas, is the school that I appreciated and finally grew up to be a productive (or as productive as I am going to get) member of society.

Its hard to stay objective when you are surrounded by scum day after day. I would not applaud subjectivism however. It is easy to sit here on a computer telling you guys what I learned ten years ago about the criminal justice system; however, the anecdotal evidence of how you pissed away scholarships; does not help deviants get better in the least.
Sean

 

[bydand]

Its hard to stay objective when you are surrounded by scum day after day. I would not applaud subjectivism however. It is easy to sit here on a computer telling you guys what I learned ten years ago about the criminal justice system; however, the anecdotal evidence of how you pissed away scholarships; does not help deviants get better in the least.
Sean

Never intended it to. Just showing that 2 years of free college isn't the answer for everybody. If I get the slant of the last comment, I wouldn't want my kids going to university with a bunch of deviants because they (the deviants) can go without any outlay or commitment. We need to catch the at risk kids LONG before they are college age, by then they have set their course generally and all extra schooling would do, is generate a criminal who is better spoken and well read.

 

[MJS]

The next two years are what everyone needs to simply sharpen their skills for the job market: the typing they didn't take, pass english 101, 201 if possible, sharpened math skills ect.
As for the K-12 system, we should pay a salary for the quality of person dealing with our children, boost counceling services, throw some truant officers in the game (saw that on the "little Rascals"), smaller class rooms ect.
Sean

I agree. It would be nice to make sure that these people had the proper skills. My question and one that I asked earlier, is, why are these people progressing grades if they don't have the skills? In other words, if someone is failing a subject, having difficulty, etc. why are they being moved to the next grade?

That being said, the first problem that needs to be dealt with is why are the teachers moving them?

 

[Monadnock]

Your right the justice system should not be involved in making sure the kids don't fall throught the cracks. That is the responsibility of the education system; so, fund it.
Sean

Perhaps in small part, since it is a requirement by law that kids get an education up through the age of 16 or 18, but there's a lot more resting on the parents. Let's fund them instead.

 

[MJS]

Perhaps in small part, since it is a requirement by law that kids get an education up through the age of 16 or 18, but there's a lot more resting on the parents. Let's fund them instead.

Yes, I agree. IMHO, too many times, people want to pass the buck to someone else. We should be starting with the parents.

 

[jks9199]

Your right the justice system should not be involved in making sure the kids don't fall throught the cracks. That is the responsibility of the education system; so, fund it.
Sean

I disagree... And I suspect people are beginning to know what's coming next.

It's not the educational system's job to ensure that a particular student learns. It's the job of the educational system to make sure that the information and knowledge is available to the students.

It's the STUDENT's job to learn, and at an earlier age, their parents's job to do all they can to encourage them to do so. You cannot make a person learn. The old adage about being able to lead a horse to water, but not make it drink is perfectly apt here. Society can support and encourage parents in the effort of helping their kids learn; witness the simple disparity, even in identical school systems between Asian students whose family and culture strongly support education, and many black students who don't benefit from that very strong support of education (and can even be criticised and ostracized for putting too much emphasis on education!) Society can support and encourage education in general -- but society cannot make any one person choose to learn.

In the end, the responsibility for staying out of jail is simple. It rests on choices of the individual more than anything else. If you don't make choices to associate with criminals and to commit criminal acts, the odds of finding yourself in prison are very slim (I admit; they does exist. Mistakes -- or worse -- have put innocent people in jail or prison, but I'm not aware of a better system than the one we have.).

 

[Touch Of Death]

I disagree... And I suspect people are beginning to know what's coming next.

It's not the educational system's job to ensure that a particular student learns. It's the job of the educational system to make sure that the information and knowledge is available to the students.

It's the STUDENT's job to learn, and at an earlier age, their parents's job to do all they can to encourage them to do so. You cannot make a person learn. The old adage about being able to lead a horse to water, but not make it drink is perfectly apt here. Society can support and encourage parents in the effort of helping their kids learn; witness the simple disparity, even in identical school systems between Asian students whose family and culture strongly support education, and many black students who don't benefit from that very strong support of education (and can even be criticised and ostracized for putting too much emphasis on education!) Society can support and encourage education in general -- but society cannot make any one person choose to learn.

In the end, the responsibility for staying out of jail is simple. It rests on choices of the individual more than anything else. If you don't make choices to associate with criminals and to commit criminal acts, the odds of finding yourself in prison are very slim (I admit; they does exist. Mistakes -- or worse -- have put innocent people in jail or prison, but I'm not aware of a better system than the one we have.).

Yes, its very easy to use the "lead haorse to water" analogy, but when you see how the other leading Industrialized nations are avoiding the problem all toguether, I suggest you look there first.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Perhaps in small part, since it is a requirement by law that kids get an education up through the age of 16 or 18, but there's a lot more resting on the parents. Let's fund them instead.

Great, what's your plan?

 

[jks9199]

Yes, its very easy to use the "lead haorse to water" analogy, but when you see how the other leading Industrialized nations are avoiding the problem all toguether, I suggest you look there first.
Sean

Are other industrialized nations really avoiding the problem? The truth is that it's hard to say. You'd have to begin by looking at the legal system; they're not all the same, and that will shape their prison populations, as will their correctional system. Also, many (if not most) countries are much more demographically homogenous (in multiple factors from ethnicity to society) than the USA. That also will have an effect on their prison population and rate of incarceration.

Very simply -- you can't look at only one element of a very complex system, and claim that "if only we fix this, the problem will go away." I've got a sure fire way to reduce the prison population. Crime rates have consistently shown a link between the population of 18 to 25 (or so) year olds, especially males. So... I can solve that problem. For the next 12 years -- no more draft. We'll just kill 'em all. Crime rates will plummet.

But, y'know... I just don't see many people going for that approach. It's got some major problems with it...

I've never said (and, in fact, have said the opposite) that improving the educational system -- but not by simply adding 2 more years -- won't benefit society and reduce the crime rates. I will say that simply adding 2 more years of education by itself is unlikely to do so; those who will benefit from it will seek it on their own in our current system, and those who need it to acquire basic skills won't. Revamp the educational system; let's make sure that everyone who gets a high school diploma is really able to read and write, and, in light of today's environment, has a basic level of computer literacy. Let's provide more vocational education, especially targetting those who are either unready or just plain not fit for college, whether by temperment or intelligence/learning aptitude. We don't need a nation of college professors who can't find a working toilet... Let's get the schools out of the nanny/babysitting business.

But let's also try teaching something else, from an early age. Let's get people to accept that it's not whether or not you tried, or whether everyone got a turn, and that life's just plain not fair. Let's teach people that when you make a bad choice -- it has consequences. And you've got to take them...

I bet that, even if we changed nothing else in our educational system, if we got people to accept and realize that they are responsible for their actions and their choices -- for good or ill -- we'd see a reduction in crime rates. And I bet society would be doing better, too.