Which knuckles?

[Deaf Smith]

Kirk,

I broke my hand, smallest bone behind the pinkie finger's knuckle, cause I hit with the last three knuckes back in college.

That's why I'm kind of biased about how to strike with a punch.

Deaf

 

[Skpotamus]

You aren't asking ME are you? I think you have misunderstood MY position on this issue:

I am COMPLETELY FOR using the largest two knuckles and would never DREAM of using the smaller two And exactly for the reasons quoted above.

I don't know if it is due to training or physiology, but I find the wrist alignment using the large two knuckles stronger and more natural feeling that aligning with the small two knuckles.

Also, how did "vertical fist" and "horizontal fist" get mixed up in this discussion?

I use BOTH vertical fist AND horizontal fist — BOTH with the large two knuckles*— depending on range and/or situation.

zDom, I started off talking to you about the breaking, then switched to another person in the next paragraph, sorry I didn't make it clear. :asian:

 

[lklawson]

Kirk,

I broke my hand, smallest bone behind the pinkie finger's knuckle, cause I hit with the last three knuckes back in college.

That's why I'm kind of biased about how to strike with a punch.

Like I said, if you're happy with the way that you punch and have some reasonable purpose for your selection then I've got no bones to pick with you. I'm not gonna tell you you're doing it "wrong."

Fact is, I'm perfectly happy with folks who want to punch with the index and middle knuckles. It's just not the only way.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[tyciol]

It does seem confusing... I'd probably try to harden all the knuckles. Your aim messes up a lot in combat so sometimes you hit with a part of the hand you didn't intend to.

Honestly I think it might depend on the kind of punch you're using too. I always figured for a straight punch you'd use the inside 2, and for a cross you'd use the outside 2.

 

[Skpotamus]

ty, a cross is a straight punch.

http://www.rivalboxing.com/e/trainingtips-e.html

 

[lklawson]

ty, a cross is a straight punch.

In the old school, the cross was actually a "Cross Counter." It was (typically) a rear punch fired over (or under) an opponent's incoming punch, while you bob to one side (usually the inside, but not always), with the punch "crossing" it. This terminology persisted up through the first part of the 20th C. and didn't change until sometime around the 40s or 50s (at a guess) when the terminology dissapeared from the common boxing lexicon.

You still see it happen today but the term "Cross Counter" isn't applied to it per se.

Here are a few examples:

Dempsey Cross Counter

Davies - Right hand cross counter

Corbet - Crossing on the jaw

Boxing and how to train - pp26 LEFT HAND CROSS COUNTER

Davies - Avoiding right lead and cross countering with the left

Davies - Avoiding a right lead and cross countering with right upper cut

Davies - Avoiding a left lead at head and cross countering with right upper cut

Edwards' Cross Counter

 

[Skpotamus]

In the old school, the cross was actually a "Cross Counter." It was (typically) a rear punch fired over (or under) an opponent's incoming punch, while you bob to one side (usually the inside, but not always), with the punch "crossing" it. This terminology persisted up through the first part of the 20th C. and didn't change until sometime around the 40s or 50s (at a guess) when the terminology dissapeared from the common boxing lexicon.

You still see it happen today but the term "Cross Counter" isn't applied to it per se.

I didn't know that was how the term came into being. Today the term refers to a punch thrown with the rearhand, straight at your opponent, it's also called a straight right (for orthodox fighters) from time to time.

Edited: For some reason the pictures aren't showing up until they're in my quotes

 

[geezer]

Kirk, I broke my hand, smallest bone behind the pinkie finger's knuckle, cause I hit with the last three knuckes back in college. That's why I'm kind of biased about how to strike with a punch.
Deaf

I'm sure that kind of experience leaves a lasting impression. I was having this same conversation a short while back, and the guy on the stool next to me put out his fist and showed me were he shattered his middle knuckle when hitting with the first two knuckles. He said he had to have it surgically pinned and recovery took over a year. My point? If you hit the right target with the right technique, you can effectively use the first two knuckles as in Karate, or the bottom three with a verticle fist as in Wing Tsun. On the other hand, if you screw up, either way you'll suffer the consequences. So what's the answer? Number one: Avoid stupid fist fights. Number two: When you do fight, hit 'em with a brick. LOL

 

[Skpotamus]

I'm sure that kind of experience leaves a lasting impression. I was having this same conversation a short while back, and the guy on the stool next to me put out his fist and showed me were he shattered his middle knuckle when hitting with the first two knuckles. He said he had to have it surgically pinned and recovery took over a year. My point? If you hit the right target with the right technique, you can effectively use the first two knuckles as in Karate, or the bottom three with a verticle fist as in Wing Tsun. On the other hand, if you screw up, either way you'll suffer the consequences. So what's the answer? Number one: Avoid stupid fist fights. Number two: When you do fight, hit 'em with a brick. LOL

That sounds more like a bone condition than the result of poor technique. When bones shatter, it's usually either from an incredible impact (falling from several stories, highway speed wrecks, etc), or from some form of pre-existing bone condition.

We had a girl in our school that kept shattering bones (3 total, two toes and one finger), requireing pins to be inserted to hold the bone back together until it could reknit. Turns out she had some type of osteoporosis (sp?) beginning that was causing injuries that would result in a sprain in most people turn into breaks in her. Last I heard she was undergoing treatment and had quit martial arts altogether.

Then again, your buddy might just have been incredibly unlucky.

 

[geezer]

In the old school, the cross was actually a "Cross Counter." It was (typically) a rear punch fired over (or under) an opponent's incoming punch, while you bob to one side (usually the inside, but not always), with the punch "crossing" it. This terminology persisted up through the first part of the 20th C. and didn't change until sometime around the 40s or 50s (at a guess) when the terminology dissapeared from the common boxing lexicon.

Hey, thanks for the history and the old pictures. I don't know much about the history of boxing, but I find it very interesting that the old prints and drawings you posted (at least the ones that date back before Dempsey) show the rear or "chambered" hand held low, at waist level, rather than up, guarding the head. Was there a good reason for this, or was it a case of the art not yet being fully developed? Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I'm curious as to why they did that.

 

[lklawson]

Hey, thanks for the history and the old pictures. I don't know much about the history of boxing, but I find it very interesting that the old prints and drawings you posted (at least the ones that date back before Dempsey) show the rear or "chambered" hand held low, at waist level, rather than up, guarding the head. Was there a good reason for this, or was it a case of the art not yet being fully developed? Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but I'm curious as to why they did that.

Yes, there was actually a specific reason for this.

Most of the old manuals say that the rear hand should be held covering "the Mark." This was specified as either the Solar Plexus or the pit of the stomach. Some manuals specify that the rear hand should be held somewhat slightly below the alternate pec. This also covers the mark.

Naturally the Solar Plex./Pit of the Stomach is a fantastic place to blast a person. Hard to get a Solar Plex shot with modern boxing gloves (not impossible though). They're just so big. Older gloves (mittens/mufflers) were often smaller (look at the ones on the Davies cards), and of course, bare knuckle... Well anyway.

So when you throw out that lead punch, the back hand pretty much goes somewhere, and it's common to retract it a bit down which puts it near the waist.

The reason that old style boxing didn't keep that rear hand up to cover the face as often was a function of the rules. No boxing gloves (or small) so that they had less surface area to act as a shield. Additionally, and more importantly, the inclusion of grappling in the rules led to a much more extended, distanced, game. There was still a lot of "punching the guy in the head" (it was still boxing after all), but once you got in close it was common to clinch and then try to throw, trip, or take a Chancery hold and whale the tar out of the opponent (see my book: Banned from Boxing at http://stores.lulu.com/lawson ). That's one reason why you see a more extended lead with the chin up. The lead was to act as both a "feeler" for grappling entries and as a shield to prevent it. You can see some of this "chin up - longer lead" creeping into NHB competitions. I recall the Sanchez/Koscheck fight (UFC 69) where the commentators were carping about one fighter not tucking his chin and keeping a longer lead. Kept claiming that he was "begging to be knocked out." He won that match and never took a serious punch to the head. http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/122912/Diego_Sanchez_vs_Josh_Koscheck.html (On a side note, I'm gratified to see that The Rounding Blow is slowing being reintroduced by MMA too, though it's generally thought of as a looping swing or a very horizontal "Supperman" type hook.)

Natrually, there was some stylistic overlap between the London Prize Ring rules, which allowed grappling, and the Marquis of Queensberry rules, which banned grappling. A good example of this is Billy Edwards manual (free on my lulu page), which includes instructions for both amateur (which was Marquis rules) and professional (which was London Prize Ring). The cleanest "break," stylistically, between the two probably had to be by James Corbett, affectionately known as "The Father of Modern/Scientific Boxing (his manual is also available as free download on my lulu page). His stylistic differences are very clear and distinct from that of, say, Edwards. Well worth comparing them and thinking of it as an evolution in styles prompted by the evolution of rules.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk