Where have all the chunners gone...

[geezer]

@geezer, do you spar and/or with other arts?

Honestly, of late I've only been sparring with the fridge and getting fat and useless. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf though.

 

[lansao]

Honestly, of late I've only been sparring with the fridge and getting fat and useless. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf though.

I'm fat too, it's ok. I just had my second kid and I'm definitely stress eating haha. We'll get through it eventually for our health's sake.

 

[DanT]

This one has more intention of you find that helpful.

Question, there are moments, such as at 1:15, where you cross your legs. Is this a tactic or an error?

 

[lansao]

Question, there are moments, such as at 1:15, where you cross your legs. Is this a tactic or an error?

Recovery footwork. Some great recovery tactics through out from awkward positions. Sometimes, unfortunately, legs can get crossed. That footwork shows the use of our T-step for recovery purposes. The T-step is also generally applicable throughout the system as a yielding and cornering mechanism.

 

[lansao]

Oh! Does everyone else have to deal with drifting punches with new students? The straight, then "hey you're practicing moving that way, I'm gonna drift my fist toward you this way" stuff? I've had to show slow motion boxing footage to point out that solid painful punches don't drift. We slow down to take advantage of the luxury of peaceful surroundings, and pay that much more attention to detail as a result.

 

[geezer]

This one has more intention of you find that helpful.

You know two things I really hate about that half-dummy you have... no make that three things:

1. The half-round x-section would really make it unpleasant and awkward to practice the "Neck-Pulling Hand" (the second and 12th movements in the form I train) It would also be really simple to fix by just shaving down and rounding-off the angular corners on the top 5-6 inches of the neck/body.

2. The bulky and intrusive base which would definitely interfere with the footwork and the x-ing step kick (if you do that). Also the dummy wobbles all around. Gotta come up with something better.

3. The lack of adjustable height, and the lack of springiness. It looks to me like thats not helping your execution much either.

On the other hand I love that those half-jongs are smaller and more portable (at least minus the base), and also a lot cheaper than a full-sized Jong. Cheap is good.

I'm also looking for a cheap, portable jong to set up in the boxing gym where I have my class, something that I can put away after class and have been working on some solutions to the problems mentioned above.

For one thing, has anybody tried mounting a dummy like that on a hard rubber backing like a section of an old tire, which can in turn be clamped to any post, pipe, or in my case the steel frame that holds up the rows of heavy bags in our gym? That would provide a bit of spring, and allow for easy height adjustment. Plus you could easily un-clamp it and stow it away at the end of class. Thoughts?

 

[geezer]

Question, there are moments, such as at 1:15, where you cross your legs. Is this a tactic or an error?

The Leung Ting dummy set has a crossing step setting up a simultaneous low palm strike and kick to the lower dummy trunk, done once to each side. Looks nice on the dummy. Honestly though, not something that would be applied very often.

If you look at it from a "cost-benefit" or "risk-rewards" perspective, the reward is that you quickly sidestep your opponent's attack and get a great lateral angle for your leg attack. But IMO, the "risk" you take doing a crossing step is too high in actual application against a less wooden opponent. Or, maybe that's just me with my clumsy feet.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Been on an almost 2 year break now from actually training WT and have been getting my hands dirty doing some grappling (gasp). I was only an intermediate WT student at best, Chum Kiu level. I miss it but training multiple things at one time with a busy job and young kids is a no-go option. I still practice a few movements on my homemade dummy.
I still come to the forum to hopefully see interesting videos other people training or discussion about technique. There seems to be less arguing and "trying to prove my point" on here these days since the departure of certain people (or maybe they're lurking and just silent, but that's far less likely). Some of the discussions here get a little.... esoteric for me sometimes though, especially about the history of WC and CMA.

 

[Danny T]

Short answer, I think it's yes if I'm reading you correctly. With bong sao for example, I find with practice my lats raise my shoulders into a tucked position more consistently, my upper arm is more easily parallel to the ground, and that the "deflective shelf" of the forearm has a higher upper bound at the elbow, and in general I feel like I've had better upper gate coverage. Does that help answer the question?

I'm more looking at movements like at 20 sec) again at 26 sec & 1:09 sec) as well as in several others.

Having to lift the shoulder and elbow to reach tends to go against a major fundamental of the wing chun I am accustom to. So am curious as to the reasoning. My understanding is the dummy is a fine tuner and for me having it such a height would create and re-enforce some bad habits.

I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong but is quite different for what I'm accustom to and interested in why you do so.
Thanks in advance.

 

[lansao]

You know two things I really hate about that half-dummy you have... no make that three things:

1. The half-round x-section would really make it unpleasant and awkward to practice the "Neck-Pulling Hand" (the second and 12th movements in the form I train) It would also be really simple to fix by just shaving down and rounding-off the angular corners on the top 5-6 inches of the neck/body.
I find it doesn't bother me much.

2. The bulky and intrusive base which would definitely interfere with the footwork and the x-ing step kick (if you do that). Also the dummy wobbles all around. Gotta come up with something better.
The base was custom made by a friend and unfortunately does push out a bit. I'll replace it at some point but for now I find it doesn't really get in the way of my leg work.

3. The lack of adjustable height, and the lack of springiness. It looks to me like thats not helping your execution much either.
Adjustable height might be nice. I notice that people put a lot of emphasis on springiness of the dummy. Why? Seems trivial.

In terms of execution, were there any specific areas that you wanted to discuss or were curious about?

 

[Danny T]

The Leung Ting dummy set has a crossing step setting up a simultaneous low palm strike and kick to the lower dummy trunk, done once to each side. Looks nice on the dummy. Honestly though, not something that would be applied very often.

If you look at it from a "cost-benefit" or "risk-rewards" perspective, the reward is that you quickly sidestep your opponent's attack and get a great lateral angle for your leg attack. But IMO, the "risk" you take doing a crossing step is too high in actual application against a less wooden opponent. Or, maybe that's just me with my clumsy feet.

geezer, we do so as well.
Couple of potentials:
One is same as what you've stated.
One is a leg sweep followed by a kick to behind the opponent's knee or ankle stomp.
There are other potentials.

 

[lansao]

I'm more looking at movements like at 20 sec) again at 26 sec & 1:09 sec) as well as in several others.

Having to lift the shoulder and elbow to reach tends to go against a major fundamental of the wing chun I am accustom to. So am curious as to the reasoning. My understanding is the dummy is a fine tuner and for me having it such a height would create and re-enforce some bad habits.

What you're seeing is our bil sao. You can imagine deflecting a right punch with left bil sao, being on the inside, and looking to get to the outside. Bil, Heun, Double-Lop, Palm, reset, Bil, T-Step alternate Bil, Double-Lop, Palm, etc. The reach to the back of the neck of the opponent is short from there. Our bil sao does go to full extension.

 

[Danny T]

What you're seeing is our bil sao. You can imagine deflecting a right punch with left bil sao, being on the inside, and looking to get to the outside. Bil, Heun, Double-Lop, Palm, reset, Bil, T-Step alternate Bil, Double-Lop, Palm, etc. The reach to the back of the neck of the opponent is short from there. Our bil sao does go to full extension.

OK...thanks.

 

[Callen]

If anyone is curious, I'm posting the wooden dummy form as I've learned it here. Would love to take any specific questions about specific sets. Just use the video time or set number.

~ Alan

This is quite a long form. Good job and thanks for sharing! A few questions do come to mind... being respectfully curious of course

Have you trained on a dummy set at a lower height? If so, what did you think?
Is your left hand placement @30 sec. and again @1:47 sec. intentional?
Are you purposely further away from the dummy during the Po Pai section @1:33 sec. and again @1:37 sec?

Thanks again, I thoroughly enjoy seeing different dummy forms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For one thing, has anybody tried mounting a dummy like that on a hard rubber backing like a section of an old tire, which can in turn be clamped to any post, pipe, or in my case the steel frame that holds up the rows of heavy bags in our gym? That would provide a bit of spring, and allow for easy height adjustment. Plus you could easily un-clamp it and stow it away at the end of class. Thoughts?

I had built up a WC dummy from a telephone pole. It stands on a metal plate with spring. All 3 arms have spring in it. The head, body, arms are all covered by rubber. The chest is also covered by fur. It cost me $500 back in 1973. The nice thing about it is I can treat it as a punching bag and I can punch on the head or body as hard as I can.

When I put my WC dummy in my MA school. One day someone broke in through the window. He kneed down in front of my WC dummy and warship it as his god.

 

[lansao]

geezer, we do so as well.
Couple of potentials:
One is same as what you've stated.
One is a leg sweep followed by a kick to behind the opponent's knee or ankle stomp.
There are other potentials.

This is quite a long form. Good job and thanks for sharing! A few questions do come to mind... being respectfully curious of course

Have you trained on a dummy set at a lower height? If so, what did you think?
Is your left hand placement @30 sec. and again @1:47 sec. intentional?
Are you purposely further away from the dummy during the Po Pai section @1:33 sec. and again @1:37 sec?

Thanks again, I thoroughly enjoy seeing different dummy forms.

Hope this helps answer the first question from our perspective.

Looking into the second one now but may not be able to respond right away (putting kids down).

~ Alan

 

[lansao]

This is quite a long form. Good job and thanks for sharing! A few questions do come to mind... being respectfully curious of course

Have you trained on a dummy set at a lower height? If so, what did you think?
Is your left hand placement @30 sec. and again @1:47 sec. intentional?
Are you purposely further away from the dummy during the Po Pai section @1:33 sec. and again @1:37 sec?

Thanks again, I thoroughly enjoy seeing different dummy forms.

For the second question, that's me not stepping in deep enough. Could be because of my weird dummy base protruding out too far or me not lining up correctly before hand. I tend to have to repeat each set a few times to not make a mistake.

Side note: It's also my least favorite set because of the impracticality of double-palm strikes but it's kept in for tradition. The two hand push deflection from quan sao is useful but overshadowed by set five.

 

[lansao]

Hope this helps answer the first question from our perspective.

Looking into the second one now but may not be able to respond right away (putting kids down).

~ Alan

Looked into the second one. You've found an area where my dummy's design may be hindering my ability to step in deep enough to deliver a double palm strike with confidence.

 

[lansao]

I would really love to better understand how other lineages think about deflection with particular focus on energy efficiency.

 

[lansao]

By the way, I spent time going through the principles that Sigung Holder first established and did the administrative data entry task of sorting them in a stacking order. Also included a few more "in-between concepts" that helped me learn and teach a little faster.

First ten of the 50 rules I work hard to train by:

1. Proof By Authority Is Worthless
2. Confidence in Analysis & Competence in Practice
3. Energy Should be Conserved
4. Opponent Has Uniform Advantage
5. Fighting Force with Force Should be Avoided
6. Movement Should be Minimized (frequency)
7. Movement Should be Simple (Tightly Factored)
8. Confidentiality Gives You The Advantage
9. Unification of Intent (Coordinated Body Mechanics)
10. Occupation of Territory

Happy to share more if anyone is interested. PM me.

~ Alan