When To Teach forms

[Elfan]

It seems to me that forms serve to exercise the principles of motion and self defense. They are like expressions of basic skills. Some of them (Short 3 plus) are constructed out of self defense techniques. I was wondering what order people teach the above in. For example, do you teach a student how to cover, then teach them short form 1? Short form 1 then how to cover? Both at the same time? Along the same line, for the forms based on techniques, do you teach the form after, before, or at the same time as the techniques?

 

[Kenpomachine]

In my school we usually teach short form one at the same time as the blocks. Short two and long one and two are taught after we've already seen most of the material isolated.
From short three on is kinda different, some of the techs we already know, but most of them we learn the application while learning the form.
I can't think of a way to do these forms without knowing/imagining what you're doing to your opponent. How can you learn those techniques AFTER then?

 

[theletch1]

In my kwoon we generally learn the technique (i.e. blocks) then the form. After seeing the form a few times we will set up attackers on the four points 12,3,6,9 and have the attacker throw the combination that the form defends against at that point on the "clock". Works well to show how the form teaches the self defense aspect of the technique and it's a good review for those of us who have already learned the form.

respecfully,
theletch1:asian:

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
How can you learn those techniques AFTER then?

I doubted many would even consider teaching it that way but I put it in for completness.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? I stuck it in the Kenpo forum but its aplicable to any martial art that arranges a bunch of basics together in a dance/kata/form like thing.

 

[jules]

We start teaching our first kata(form),short 1, in your orange belt, right after you've got your basics down pat!
After that it's 2 katas per belt, the higher up you get the more demanding the katas and the more frequent.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by jules
We start teaching our first kata(form),short 1, in your orange belt, right after you've got your basics down pat!
After that it's 2 katas per belt, the higher up you get the more demanding the katas and the more frequent.

For the belts with multiple forms, do the two forms exereices the same lessons? Differn't lessons? Are they both focused on "stuf" that you learned the last belt? Or for those belts do you learn the stuf and the form at the same time?

 

[jules]

Originally posted by Elfan
For the belts with multiple forms, do the two forms exereices the same lessons? Differn't lessons? Are they both focused on "stuf" that you learned the last belt? Or for those belts do you learn the stuf and the form at the same time?

That depends on the individual, some people are very quick learners, on average, for instance, short 1 and some stuff could be learned where long 1 would probably be the whole lesson, keeping in mind that it is based on 30 min. lessons :asian:

 

[Elfan]

A little clarification on where I was trying to go with this...

Short Form 1, as stated in INFINITE INSIGHTS, Volume 5, teaches 17 points:
1. Staying down while in a stance.
2. To use an erect carriage.
3. Increasing peripheral vision
4. Always looking at your opponent.
5. Never exposing your back unnecessarily.
6. How to cover in a neutral bow stance.
7. To keep your head at a constant level while changing stances.
8. How to retreat from an opponent when you turn to face the then unkown.
9. Basic timing of hands and feet.
10. How to retreat from an opponent while retreating, (opposite hand, opposite foot).
11. Relaxing and tensing at the proper moment.
12. Angle changes in preparation for a mass attack.
13. How to use the opposite arm as a hidden weapon.
14. How to move up and down in an "L" pattern.
15. Repetition of the four basic blocks while you are retreating.
16. To have your block make contact at a distance from you so that your opponents punch will be diverted.
17. Crisp moves with snap and torque.

Thats some of the "stuf" short form one exercises. When, realtive to that stuf, do you teach short form 1 and when, idealy, would you teach it?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Elfan
When do you teach short form 1?

After the student has learned some of the basics to Yellow Belt. I teach Blocking Set # 1 for the first half of the Yellow Belt then after the student has achieved advanced White (learned everything on the Yellow Chart "except" 5 self defense techniques and Short Form 1) teach the remaining material on the march to Yellow.

The student is then acquainted with several of the basics and now puts them into action.

Of course this is still the beginning level and will be revisited several times as advancement thru the Art continues.

It is a beginning "Point of Reference" to build upon.

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Mr. Conatser does what I do. I teach what I learned.

To all who came before -
Oss,
-Michael

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Mr. Conatser does what I do. I teach what I learned.
To all who came before - Oss, -Michael

LOL - - - NOoooooooo ..... You got it b@ss ackwards......
Michael does what I do....... since I was teaching long before he learned it.:rofl:

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

I learned it from you? No, that one I learned from Howard, but we had a very, very similar one in the NCKKA and Brian Duffy was "my source" originally on that techniqe (Ground Defense A, B, C, D.)

... so we don't do the "Sam Ting"? You was always 'dere befo' me brudda. But we were not always at the same places.

That's right, give me a hard time for a slip of the sequential flow. You know I have always had to slow down to work on my timing. Glad you enjoyed it. I am down a computer or 3 while I am moving. So my posts are limited right now. Sorry about the delayed response ... and acknowledgement of "me doing it like you," could it be we do it like each other? But you did it better first, now I do it worse better.

(Roll out, grin, and salute)
:asian:
Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[Goldendragon7]

Origin posted by Michael Billings
Give me a hard time for a slip of the sequential flow. (Roll out, grin, and salute):asian:-Michael

Ohhhhhhhh that wrascally wittle wabbit...... ohhhhhhhhhhhh
:rofl: