When recreational drugs are legal...

[ballen0351]

Your post brings up something I've thought about a lot and I apologize in advance because it's one of those things that is going to be considered offensive by a lot of posters.

How can we listen to anything a cop has to say when it comes to the drug war when so many cop jobs are tied to it's existance?

There is a vested interest to believe all of the hype and keep the status quo because paychecks depend on it. The same can be said of teachers and soldiers and a whole bunch of other taxpayer funded employees. I don't think the average LEO is so cynical that they consciously support the drug war as a jobs program, but the conflict of interest certainly seems to grease the wheels toward a certain ideological conclusion.

Its a valid question you ask. The same could be said about why ask a Docs opinion on health care reform after all they profit more from higher costs, or Why ask a General about ending the Wars because its how he makes or breaks his future promotions.

Prior to Law Enforcment I had a Legalize Everything outlook. I had the same arguments and belief as you that its my body I should be able to do what I want. My outlook changed once I get deeply involved in the "war on Drugs" It had nothing to do with Job security because You could end all drug laws tomorrow Ill still have a job there are plenty of other crimes on the books Im not worried about that.
I changed my opinon because unlike a Doc sitting in an office or a Nurse who only deals with the user in a controlled environment. They are not the ones that had to deal with the rest of the incident. When I bring a naked PCP user into the ER Ive already foght him and got him under control. When EMS brings the woman who OD on Heroin into the Er Im still at her house trying to find a clean diaper to change the baby while I wait for Social Serivce to come give the kid a place to stay. When the Nurse turns the lights off on the Operating Room after the 19 year old that just dide from an OD Im the one knocking on his mothers door to tell her her son is dead. Im the one that stands in 100 deg weather on a crime scene 20 feet from a dead body for hours waiting for the Homicide guys to finsh with the crime scene on a drug deal gone wrong.

So you can say I do have a personal ME ME ME I I I reason to not want to see more drugs on the street and Ill admit it fully but it has NOTHING to do with job security. But just because I have a personal agenda for my reasons does not make my reason invalid.

 

[Carol]

I think its a fair point to make, Ballen. It's part of the overall picture.

 

[Makalakumu]

I can accept that reasoning, but at the same time, I know there are entire federal agencies who depend on the drug war for their survival. It surely is a factor there.

At any rate, I think the US could actually win the war on drugs. We could reduce the numbers of users to the point where only a few degenerates and crazies would dare try it. The main obstacle is the Constitution. The kinds of police state crack downs that could be effective would shred the Bill of Rights.

That said, this puts police in a tough position. They are forced to fight a limited war that can never truly be successful, like Vietnam. So maybe we can think of a different solution. Maybe decriminalization and legalization could be part of that solution.

I would rather have drugs be legal than live in a police state with very few civil rights. I don't want the government to have the kind of power it would take to actually win the drug war.

 

[ballen0351]

And by the way please don't take my above post as a knock on docs or nurse there job is way harder then mine in my opinion they are miracle workers some of the amazing things I've seen them do. My best friend at work was shot 4 times and is only alive today because of the amazing work nurses did at shock trauma

 

[ballen0351]

I keep hearing about this police state what rights are being violated. I know the 4th amendment like the back of my hand and everything I do I try to do it right. I've known for a fact I've let dope walk away because I couldn't think of a legal way to get it out of his pocket

I can accept that reasoning, but at the same time, I know there are entire federal agencies who depend on the drug war for their survival. It surely is a factor there.

At any rate, I think the US could actually win the war on drugs. We could reduce the numbers of users to the point where only a few degenerates and crazies would dare try it. The main obstacle is the Constitution. The kinds of police state crack downs that could be effective would shred the Bill of Rights.

That said, this puts police in a tough position. They are forced to fight a limited war that can never truly be successful, like Vietnam. So maybe we can think of a different solution. Maybe decriminalization and legalization could be part of that solution.

I would rather have drugs be legal than live in a police state with very few civil rights. I don't want the government to have the kind of power it would take to actually win the drug war.

 

[Makalakumu]

I keep hearing about this police state what rights are being violated. I know the 4th amendment like the back of my hand and everything I do I try to do it right. I've known for a fact I've let dope walk away because I couldn't think of a legal way to get it out of his pocket

That is exactly my point. Your hands are tied. In order to actually win the drug war we need to shred the Bill of Rights. It wouldn't be America any more. LEOs like yourself are forced to fight a limited war and that's why all of the stats show that it's failing. Drugs are a domestic Vietnam!

So, with American traditions of individual liberty in mind, how do we solve the problem of drug abuse and preserve the basic tenets upon which our country was founded?

Law enforcement is not going to do this.

 

[Tgace]

If you think that the term "war on drugs" is anything more than a metaphor for an increased enforcement effort vs. an actual war than you don't know how law enforcement works, or you are willfully trying to use the term to frame the issue as a win/loose proposition.

Do you think there would be no theft if we declared a "war on shoplifting"? Rape? DWI? All the "war on drugs" term really means is that the US, as well as the governments in source nations, decided to apply military and military aid to attack cartels, fields, and production facilities within the source countries.

Its not as if drug use and drug trafficking was legal before this "war on drugs" was declared.

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[Carol]

there are several factors which can lead to the rise in drug use. #1 the legalization of "medical" marijuana in many west coast states which has created a much greater availibility of the product. Most of the Marijuana we have now in this state is sent thru the mail, UPS, and FEX EX from the west coast. #2 the economy has gone down and unemployment has gone up and there is a feeling of "giving up" from the young adults that cant find work that also applies to the other age group of fired older workers 50+ that now cant find jobs. #3 since 2001 Law enforcement prioritys have shifted from Gang violence and Drug enforcemnt to terror operations.

A few questions for you if you don't mind me asking. I have heard from a few sources that underage drinking has gone down due to stiffer penalties levied to establishments that let under-21s access alcohol. Is marijuana replacing alcohol in this age group, do you think?

If marijuana were legalized across the board...would the money coming in from taxation of its use be better than what is currently coming in from it's use?

If marijuana users could to a town smoke shop or ABC store for their smokes, would that reduce the "gateway" effect? Im The local smoke shop isn't going to be a dealer that can profit in getting someone hooked on hard drugs. I think some idjits out their will always be pushing the envelope with their "high" no matter what, and these idjits will find a way to get the nasty stuff...but would legalization provide less temptations for the casual user?

I don't have a dog in the hunt here. I loathe street drugs (including marijuana) and have zero interest in using...but the libertarian side of me speaks out from time to time. A medical marijuana bill was going through legislature. It failed, but nonetheless its been a hot topic up here in the hinterlands

 

[ballen0351]

That is exactly my point. Your hands are tied. In order to actually win the drug war we need to shred the Bill of Rights. It wouldn't be America any more. LEOs like yourself are forced to fight a limited war and that's why all of the stats show that it's failing. Drugs are a domestic Vietnam!

So, with American traditions of individual liberty in mind, how do we solve the problem of drug abuse and preserve the basic tenets upon which our country was founded?

Law enforcement is not going to do this.

The thing is that's not just a drug problem that's law enforcement in general. I know a guy right now who has shot and killed 5 people in the last 3 years everyone knows it but knowing it and proving it are totally different. The thing about him is the only way we will finally get him in prison will be on drug charges. We have had witnesses tell us they saw him kill and they refuse to testify because they are afraid of the rest of his family. He's failed polygraphs on 3 of the suspected murders. We just can't get the solid evidence on him. What we can do is find other crimes to put him away for

 

[Tgace]

That is exactly my point. Your hands are tied. In order to actually win the drug war we need to shred the Bill of Rights. It wouldn't be America any more. LEOs like yourself are forced to fight a limited war and that's why all of the stats show that it's failing. Drugs are a domestic Vietnam!

So, with American traditions of individual liberty in mind, how do we solve the problem of drug abuse and preserve the basic tenets upon which our country was founded?

Law enforcement is not going to do this.

Ballen beat me to it. How do we solve murders,rapes and robberies without "shredding the bill of rights"? Drug possession and sales/trafficking is simply another crime in a list of crimes we investigate. Don't stretch this "war" metaphor too far.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Denial can be an ugly thing...

Ever consider that there might be less rapes, murders, etc if so many resources weren't wasted on the War on Drugs?

...probably not.

You guys continue to ignore the facts. Even when you're smacked in the face with them. Even when your own sources back the opposing viewpoint. You keep dodging the facts in a vain attempt to try and salvage some sense of a victory for yourself.

You just can't accept the fact that you are wrong. It's sad. Sad for you and sad for all those people who suffer because of it.

 

[Makalakumu]

Ballen beat me to it. How do we solve murders,rapes and robberies without "shredding the bill of rights"? Drug possession and sales/trafficking is simply another crime in a list of crimes we investigate. Don't stretch this "war" metaphor too far.

I didn't invent the "war" metaphor. That is the property of the US government. They labeled this as a "war on drugs" just as they labeled our current actions in Afghanistan a "war on terror." Both of these share similar characteristics and are related, btw. I'm comparing the the propaganda to Vietnam because I think the concepts are related.

In all cases, because we are a "moral" country and because we believe in individual freedom, we are bound to "lose" because we won't go far enough to actually win.

So, what does losing look like? It looks like letting the guy you know has a bag of weed go. It looks like letting the guy you know set the IEDs go because you can't "prove" it. It looks like Vietnam. It looks like another ******** government policy where every problem is a nail and your only tool is a hammer.

 

[Makalakumu]

Ballen beat me to it. How do we solve murders,rapes and robberies without "shredding the bill of rights"? Drug possession and sales/trafficking is simply another crime in a list of crimes we investigate. Don't stretch this "war" metaphor too far.

Also, in Hawaii, marijuana grows everywhere. The Hawaiians call it Pakalolo. It is way more common then rapes and murders, way harder to fight...

 

[celtic_crippler]

In case you missed it...

First to address a few questions posed to me specifically…

I do not use anything other than alcohol. And since so many of you like to pop off about your personal experience and why it makes you “right”, let me enlighten you to the fact that I am a nurse. I’ve seen and treated addicts. But you don’t see me citing that as a basis for why I support the legalization of drugs. I also was in law enforcement in my youth and shared some of the same limited views that some of you presently have. It wasn’t until I got into healthcare and received more education and experience that my views changed. I suppose having an open mind helped in that regard. Contrary to others, I’ve been using logic, reason, and fact to support my position and not how I “feel” about the issue.

You’d think that after 4+ decades of trying to put out a fire with gasoline that somebody would have figured out that not only does it not work, but it makes the problem even worse.

Sure, the fire department has plenty of work and employs a lot more firemen. And those selling gasoline are making a killing; however, not only is the fire not extinguished but the damage is worse than it was than when you started.

It is blind ignorance and tantamount to insanity to continue a failed policy. I’ve never disputed the harm excessive drug use has on a person and/or their family. I’ve only disputed the method in which the problem is addressed.

Alcohol is legal and regulated; however, alcoholics still exist. They existed when it was illegal and they exist when it’s legal. The difference is that when it was illegal, there were more victims than just the addicts.

The facts are out there to prove the War on Drugs is a failure. Many of these facts are the results of studies done by our own government! Yet, people ignore these facts so that they can feel good about themselves and feel morally superior. Well, while you crusade, people like Brian Terry become victims due to a failed policy. Do you feel good about that?

Even when presented with these facts, supporters of the War on Drugs cite nothing but personal experience and limited personal perspective. Somehow thinking that they are the center of the universe and that their own unique and limited point of view should be the basis for how the rest of the world addresses the problem, in effect, adding fuel to the fire.

They can’t actually cite any real evidence that the War on Drugs is working, because there is none. In fact, the very government that perpetuates the War on Drugs has evidence and has conducted studies that say otherwise. So instead, these supporters rely on how they feel about it. I’ve long held that emotion is the enemy of reason…

There’s no denying that addiction is a problem, but addicts are overlooked along with their problems so that the self righteous can feel morally superior. Meanwhile, the addicts receive no help and those like the family of Brian Terry continue to suffer because of the collateral damage caused by a pointless, useless, and ineffective “War on Drugs”.

There is no easy fix, but making drugs illegal and treating addicts as criminals instead of having an illness has not and does not work. I know that treating it as a healthcare issue instead of a criminal issue is a more valid approach and more accurately addresses the problem. Many have claimed to want to reduce drug use but are unwilling to change their support for the War on Drugs, even though it is an obvious failure and harmed more people in the process. It makes absolutely no sense.

Even though “Prohibition” against alcohol proved many of my points many decades ago, for some reason many of you can not seem to see the correlation in regards to the “War on Drugs”. Countries that have legalized drugs, regulated drugs, and offer rehab for addicts have shown drastic decreases in crime, disease, and overall use thereby limiting and reducing the number of “victims”.

I appreciate the idealists of the world, but the world does not exist in terms of black and white. In many circumstances, we can only hope to limit and reduce the damage. I understand that it’s human nature to want to control our environment, but without understanding that this is impossible we almost always cause more harm than good.

FACTS: (And these aren’t from “some doc I don’t know”… many are the result of studies conducted by our own government as well as legitimate health care professionals)

• Over $40 billion in tax payer money is spent annually yet drug use has not declined
• The availability of illicit drugs has more than doubled in the last few decades
• Illicit drugs are more potent and cheaper than they were 20 years ago
• The government receives no tax revenue from the sell of illicit drugs
• Gangs chief source of income comes from the sell of illicit drugs
• Since the inception of the “War on Drugs”, the instances of drug overdose and ER drug episodes has steadily risen
• Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug, yet has few adverse side effects. No one has ever overdosed from using marijuana and the long term health issues from its use are fewer than that of alcohol.
• Over 57% of addicts who want treatment receive none and are instead jailed.
• Each $1 invested in treatment saves $7 in societal costs
• Treatment is 10 times more effective at reducing use than imprisonment
• Over 60% of federal prisoners are incarcerated over NON-VIOLENT drug offenses. The US has more prisoners per capita than any other nation. Yet we claim to be the most “free”.
• More than 47,500 people have died in drug-related violence in Mexico over the last 5 years.
• 60% of the societal costs involved in illicit drug use are related to the associated black market crime related to the illegality of illicit drugs; only 30% of societal costs are related to the actual ingestion of illicit drugs.
• A Harvard study showed that the legalization of illicit drugs would inject over $76 billion annually into the US economy. Subtract the $40 billion spent annually on the War on Drugs and that’s a net increase of over $100 billion
• Studies show that treatment would be 23 times more effective than the current War on Drugs
• Only 10-15% of heroin and about 30% of cocaine shipments are intercepted by law enforcement. Over 75% would have to be intercepted to have any real impact on trafficker’s profits.
• According to the FBI in 2005, despite spending over $7 billion to arrest and prosecute over 800,000 people for marijuana offenses, 85% of all high school seniors reported that marijuana was “easy to obtain.”
• The Global Commission on Drug Policy recently released a report stating that the 4 decades long War on Drugs campaign has not only failed, but made the problem worse

And there’s much, much more out there… Those were just some highlights!!!

You asked for answers. The Global Commission on Drug Policy suggests the following:

• End the criminalization, marginalization and stigmatization of people who use drugs but who do not harm to others;
• Encourage the experimentation by governments with models of legal regulation of drugs (especially cannabis) to undermine the power of organized crime and safeguard the health and security of their citizens;
• Ensure that a variety of treatment modalities are available, including not just methadone and buprenorphine treatment, abut also the heroin-assisted treatment programs that have proven successful in many European countries and Canada;
• Apply human rights and harm reduction principles and policies both to people who use drugs as well as those involved in the lower ends of illegal drug markets such as farmers, couriers and petty sellers;
• Countries that continue to invest mostly in a law enforcement approach (despite the evidence) should focus their repression actions on violent organized crime and drug traffickers, in order to reduce the harms associated with the illicit drug market;
• Offer a wide and easily accessible range of options for treatment and care for drug dependence, including substitution and heroin-assisted treatment, with special attention to those most at risk, including those in prisons and other custodial settings;
• The United Nations system must provide leadership in the reform of global drug policy. This means promoting an effective approach based on evidence, supporting countries to develop drug policies that suit their context and meet their needs, and ensuring coherence among various UN agencies, policies and conventions.

 

[Tgace]

We let people go because we don't have probable cause. Its not like we wont catch them latter doing something else. Hell we let murders go too because we don't have sufficient evidence.

Again. Drugs were illegal before this "war on drugs" was declared.

All the "war on drugs" term changed was the feds going after suppliers in their source countries via military aid (monetary) and sometimes direct military action (wiping out fields, going after cartel members etc.).

 

[ballen0351]

Denial can be an ugly thing...

Ever consider that there might be less rapes, murders, etc if so many resources weren't wasted on the War on Drugs?

.

Thats one of the stupidest things ive ever seen. You claim to be former Law Enforcement but I highly doubt that claim because you show zero working knowledge of how law enforcement works.

 

[Tgace]

MYTH: Alcohol and illicit drugs are no different; thus, it is hypocritical for society to allow alcohol use while outlawing other drugs.

FACT: Alcohol and illicit drugs have a major difference. Most people use alcohol as a beverage and don’t drink to become intoxicated; whereas, with drugs, intoxication is the sole purpose. That is why marijuana smokers seek the higher THC content in marijuana and why crack is so popular among cocaine users. A more factual analogy would be to compare drug use with drunkenness. In addition, illicit drugs are far more addicting than alcohol. Also, approximately one-half of our citizens use alcohol, whereas only approximately eight percent use illicit drugs. In fact, there are almost as many people addicted to alcohol as use illicit drugs. The paradox is, while society is strengthening and demanding stricter enforcement of alcohol laws, there are those who want to decriminalize and even abolish drug laws.

 

[celtic_crippler]

And by the way please don't take my above post as a knock on docs or nurse there job is way harder then mine in my opinion they are miracle workers some of the amazing things I've seen them do. My best friend at work was shot 4 times and is only alive today because of the amazing work nurses did at shock trauma

Too late, you already said it. You've also shown that you're a self centered, self righteous, selfish zealot who is incapable of entertaining a thought outside of their own narrow, limited point of view. It's all about "you" and nobody elses experience or suffering matters if it conflicts with your tiny little world. This shouldn't come as a surprise, since you have admitted to as much in post #121.

 

[Steve]

Just to address the gateway thing, for about two thirds of the 17.4 million people who reported to smoke weed within the "past month", weed was their only illicit drug use.

While its clear that some people who smoke weed also do other illegal drugs, a much better argument could be made that alcohol is a true gateway as almost 100% of illegal drug users also drink alcohol. But that's legal....




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[celtic_crippler]

Thats one of the stupidest things ive ever seen.

Look in the mirror.