When is it OK to shoot this guy?

[Brian R. VanCise]

The initial driver and the female could have articulated a justification for use of lethal force, because of the significant apparent size and strength difference between them and the black dentist.

The car is NOT a good consideration. Most police departments very strictly limit when an officer may shoot at a car, for good reason. In a perfect world, you place one shot between the driver's eyes. WHO'S STEERING THE CAR NOW? You've just created a 1 to 2 ton unguided missile... Not a good thing. And that's in a perfect world. In reality, when Mr. Murphy adds his 2 cents... you fire 8 to 12 shots at the moving car, miss the driver, hit the baby in the car seat or the Eagle Scout in the back (which really happened, over a dine & dash here in Virginia a couple of years ago) or rounds go bouncing everywhere else.



Got the answer? Lethal force is justified to defend yourself from imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death. There is room to create justification here, based on relative differences in size -- but it's not good. It's not a good lethal force situation, especially since he was pretty cooperative as soon as the cops came up, and was somewhat restrained (pushing, not punching).



If you're gonna draw a gun or knife in self-defense situation -- be ready to use it. And be sure it's a situation that you may use lethal force. Especially if you draw a gun. Because if you're wrong -- you've just done two things: committed the offense of brandishing, and created a justification for lethal force to be used against you.

Let's look at this situation. It seems the two cops were somewhere else at the start of the incident; I see a cruiser, but it's pretty deep into it before they get involved. Let's simply assume they were in a coffee shop nearby; someone comes running in, and tells them "there's guy trying to steal a car and beating people up!" or something to that effect. They come out, and they see you holding your gun on a guy in shirt and tie... Could go real bad, real quick, huh? Especially if there was a language barrier, or just tunnel vision.



One thing I don't like about your thinking here... Action is always faster than reaction, and you're setting up a reaction of "oh no, I need my gun, gotta draw!" Assess the situation; if it appears to be heading towards a lethal force situation -- get the gun out; it doesn't have to be on target yet. You could draw to a low ready, or even simply draw it, and hide it behind your leg. (Lots of drivers have no clue I had my gun out when I was talking to them...)

Nice post jks9199! You are spot on in your assessment. Tried to rep you but I have to spread it around.