When did same-gender relations become "wrong"?

[hardheadjarhead]

Gay/bisexual military men throughout history:

Socrates (yes, he WAS a soldier).

Alexander the Great.

Hadrian, emperor of Rome.

Richard the Lionhearted.

Frederick the Great.

Baron VonSteuben

Lord Byron (bi-sexual).

T.E. Lawrence, aka, "Lawrence of Arabia".

Tyron Power (served in the Marines in WWII).


Regards,


Steve

 

[Darksoul]

-This thread has been an interesting read; many good points have been made. My personal stance in life concerning gays/lesbians/bis is one of indifference. It is a label, not indicating the true worth of the individual as a human being. As I've said earlier, take away the labels, and all we're left with is being human. I have many friends and some family members who are my friends and family members. Are they good people? I'll judge them by their words and actions, not the way they express their sexuality. I won't judge how they love another person, or why. Would I want them to judge me in the same way? Being who they are has never been a detriment in my enjoyment of life. The people who hate and bash, however, have done nothing but disgust me. I do believe they are entitled to their opinion, but is beating a person who is "gay" an acceptable expression of that opinion. Is enacting laws to limit the freedoms the rest of Americans enjoy an acceptable expression?

-What exactly are these kind of people trying to protect? A certain way of life? Two gay guys getting married in California is not going to have an impact on me in western New York. Do they love eachother and plan on being productive members of society? That is my concern, my desire for all people. Maybe its about procreation...well, I think the species homo sapiens, barring any unforseen disaster, is doing quite well in this deparment. What's the world's current population? 6.2 Billion? The human race certainly isn't dying off. Maybe its for religious concerns. Christians seem to need to procreate in regards to their faith, and thats fine, cause what greater wonder is there in the world that having and raising a child? But is it to create more Christians? Maybe for some individuals or groups they would prefer only Christians to populate the planet.

-I not picking on Christians here, for I was raised as one, and know it to be a good faith for many. I also recognize it as another label. Why is there this need to control others, not just in this situation, but in many across the country? There are more important things to worry about in life.


A---)

 

[Bester]

Ok, so, whose up for the group hug?

Hey, whoevers hands on my butt better be a good kisser!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Ok, so, whose up for the group hug?

Hey, whoevers hands on my butt better be a good kisser!

Hey, keep up that suggestive tone and you'll have some of us typing one handed.


BTW...my apologies. The above list ought read "Tyrone Power," and not "Tyrone." I lost the "e" somewheree.

Oh. There it is.


Regards,


Steve

 

[rmcrobertson]

Perhaps we should start a club called, "Friends of PeeWee..." also included would be Roy Cohn, J. Edgar Hoover, that guy who was the First Bush's campaign chairman, Bob Bauman, Siegfried and Roy (face up to it...heh, heh), Liberace (deal with it), Shakespeare, Walt Whitman, the first Forbes (of Forbes' Fortune 500?), and anybody who ever went to Scout camp...

Meanwhile, I'm sticking' with the formation of modern subjectivity in the English Renaissance...not incidentally, also where we got a lot our our contemporary wacky notions about women...read about the Pop-Out penis...which appeared when good young ladies exercised excessively and began to perspire...read about the Female Thermometer...

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Nah. Gotta disagree with the notion that "The Bard" was Gay. My very Gay Shakespeare prof in grad school didn't think so...and this guy knew Shakespeare awfully well.

But Liberace, yes. Jim Nabors, Rock Hudson...oh, heck...I'll let fly with a fairly large list. Some of these are debateable. A more accuate list is at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_gay,_lesbian_or_bisexual_people

Sappho (600 B.C.) Greek Poetess
Socrates (470-399 B.C.) Greek Teacher and Philosopher
Plato (427-347 B.C.) Greek Teacher and Philosopher
Alexander The Great (356-323 B.C.) Macedonian King and Military Leader
Wu (140-87 B.C.) Chinese Emperor
Hadrian (76-138 A.D.) Roman Emperor
Richard the Lion Hearted (1157-1199) English King and Crusader
Edward II (1254-1327) English King
Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) Italian Renaissance Artist, Teacher, Scientist and Inventor
Michelangelo (1475-1564) Italian Renaissance Artist and Sculptor
Montezuma II (1480-1520) Aztec Emperor
Julius III (1487-1555) Catholic Pope
Ieyasu Tokugawa (1542-1616) Japanese Shogun and founder of the Edo Shogunate
Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1626) British Statesman and Writer
Christopher Marlowe (1564-1593) English dramatist and poet
Christina (1626-1689) Swedish Queen
Peter the Great (1672-1725) Russian Czar
Frederick the Great (1712-1786) Prussian King and Military Leader
Madame de Stael (1766-1817) French Writer and Intellectual
Lord Byron (1788-1824) British Poet
Hans Christian Andersen (1805-1875) Danish Poet and Writer
Margaret Fuller (1810-1850) American Writer and Journalist
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) American Philosopher, Naturalist, and Peace Activist
Walt Whitman (1819-1892) American Poet
Herman Melville (1819-1891) American Writer
Chief Crazy Horse (Tashunca witco) (1849-1877) Oglala Sioux Chief
Peter I. Tchaikovsky (1840-1893) Russian Composer
Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Irish Writer and Dramatist
Dame Ethel Smyth (1858-1944) British Composer, Writer, and Activist
Marcel Proust (1871-1922) French Writer
Sergei Diaghileff (1872-1929) Russian Ballet Impresario
Vita Sackville-West (1892-1962) British Writer
Vaslav Nijinsky (1890-1950) Russian Ballet Dancer
Edward Carpenter (1844-1929) British Author and Gay Rights Pioneer
Willa Cather (1873-1947) American Writer and Critic
Colette (1873-1954) French Writer and Actress
W. Somerset Maugham (1874-1965) British Writer and Dramatist
Alice B. Toklas (1877-1967) American Writer; Stein's Domestic Partner
Gertrude Stein (1874-1946) American Writer and Art Collector; Toklas' Domestic Partner
Bessie Smith (1894-1937) African-American Blues Singer and Entertainer
E.M. Forster (1879-1970) British Writer
Virginia Woolf (1882-1941) British Writer and Publisher
Ernst Rohm (1887-1933) German Nazi and SA Leader
T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) (1888-1935) British Soldier
Jean Cocteau (1889-1963) French Writer and Filmmaker
John Maynard Keynes (1883-1946) British Economist and Nobel Prize Winner
Cole Porter (1893-1964) American Composer
Bayard Rustin (1910-87) African-American Civil Rights, Labor Rights, & Peace Activist/Leader
Alan Turing (1912-1954) British Mathematician and Computer Scientist
James Baldwin (1924-1987) African-American Writer and Civil Rights Activist
Truman Capote (1924-1984) American Author
Tennessee Williams (1914-1983) American Dramatist
Marguerite Yourcenar (1903-1987) Belgian-American Writer
Federico Garcia Lorca (1894-1936) Spanish Poet and Dramatist
Christopher Isherwood (1904-1986) British Author
W.H. Auden (1907-1973) British Poet and Writer
Harvey Milk (1930-1978) American Politician
Audre Lorde (1934-1992) African-American Writer and Activist
Billie Jean King (1943 - ) American Tennis Champion and Activist
Martina Navratilova (1956- ) Czechoslovakian-American Tennis Champion and Activist
Andy Warhol (1930-1987) American Pop Artist
Frieda Kahlo (1907-1954) Mexican Artist and Activist
Gore Vidal (1925- ) American Writer
Rudolf Nureyev (1938-1993) Russian dancer
Freddie Mercury (1946-1991) British Singer/songwriter/musician
Elton John (1947 - ) British Singer/songwriter/musican
Janis Ian (1951 - ) American Singer/songwriter/musician
Nathan Lane (1956 - ) American Actor
Ellen Degeneres (1958 - ) American Comedian/actor
Melissa Etheridge (1961 - ) American Singer/songwriter/musician
k. d. lang (1961 - ) Canadian Singer/songwriter

Gee. Who woulda thunk it? Freddy Mercury? Gay?

Life is full of surprises.

Regards,


Steve

 

[Darksoul]

-Freddy Mercury was a musical god. Queen still has some of the best music ever. It was a sad day to learn about his passing. So what if he was gay? Does that stop a lot of people singing We Are The Champions or We Will Rock You at sports arenas? Its a shame he isn't here now, I think he would have broken down more barriers and stereotypes.


A---)

 

[Floating Egg]

There seems to be three perspectives regarding homosexuality. I will briefly address each below.

1. Religion: The issue of morality within the context of religion is the most widespread perspective. Since I don't believe in God and I am not a theist, I feel no need to discuss this issue on a believer’s terms.

2. Personal Revulsion: History has shown us that this is more or less a result of social learning, and I believe it to be tied to religious beliefs in many cases. What I've found is that after peeling away the layers most people who find homosexuality disgusting are often making moral judgments, which is more often than not tied to their religious upbringing, even if they're not aware of it.


3. Unnatural: This is based on the idea that homosexuality is not natural. This interests me the most out of the three perspectives because it isn't necessarily tied to religion or personal revulsion. To ensure that I'm on the same page as the majority regarding the definition of natural, I pulled up the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. I'm just going to grab the first two definitions for the purposes of this post.


Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin naturalis of nature, from natura nature

1 : based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice>

2 a : being in accordance with or determined by nature b : having or constituting a classification based on features existing in nature


What I want to look at here is the desire to connect what happens in nature with what is correct in human behavior. The problem with using nature as a basis of moral judgment is that human beings constantly diverge from instinctual behavior, so in this regard, coming up with reasons to justify or attack homosexuality within the context of the so-called natural world is a pointless endeavor.

Even if we were to judge human behavior based on what is found in nature, the existence of homosexuality in other species would suggest that it is natural. So, where does an Atheist go if he or she can't turn to a moral argument based on nature? The only place left is the issue of majority. Since homosexuality has always been a minority within a given population, it must be wrong, right? Please don't answer that.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Well if I understod the second link correctly, it would appear that I may be gay (big surprise to me...) since I have quite obviously been exposed to very high male hormone levels judging by the fact that my ring fingers are roughly a knuckle longer than my index fingers on both hands...

Either that or I am just "hypermasculinised"

No. The finger length ratios apply to women, not men. Lesbians have ratios similar to men. Straight women typically do not.

Regards,


Steve

 

[heretic888]

Then that's still about 'teaching' the child. If it's their upbringing that determines it. Do you see what I'm saying?

You seem to be grouping my experiences and my understanding of the psychology reasearch I am familiar with as some sort of 'fantasy world'.

No, I think the whole 'nature/nurture' debate is a whole lotta hooey. Epigenesis is, like, soo much more vogue these days.

And, yes, the fundamental basis of your beliefs are determined from philosophical constructs that date to the 1700's. They are not supported by good science.

And, yes, the data indicates children are born with inherent dislike of "others". Hell, a newborn infant can't even imagine "others" to begin with. Pure narcissism and all that.

The simple truth is that the subject is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be, and no retreating into disproved "blank slates" (which is what this ultimately all relies on) is going to change that.

 

[Nightingale]

I do have to say I would feel wierd if I had to bend over or something in front of them, I would think they might be checking me out or something. But I still wouldnt make that apparent out of respect, and to not make them feel Im judging them.

It is a common misconception that a gay person will check out everyone of the same gender. Straight people aren't attracted to every person of the opposite sex, and gay people are just as discriminating. A gay man isn't going to check you out simply because you have XY chromosomes, the same way a woman won't check you out just because you're a male.

On a similar topic, it's also a common misconception that a gay person will be attracted to children of the same gender. In reality, research indicates that most pedophiles are straight. Straight people aren't generally attracted to children of the opposite sex, and gay people aren't generally attracted to children of the same sex, and find the idea just as repulsive as most straight people do. An attraction to adults of either gender is far different from an attraction to children.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I just can not imagine being with another man sexually, I have no attraction to men AT ALL.

Then don't worry about it. I don't either...and after defending Gay rights for over a year on this forum I believe that's the first time I've ever said it. I never felt the need to.

I love my best friend and all my other guy friends, but never , ever, have I felt sexually attracted to them...I dont have a problem with gays personally, I just find it very wierd for a man to want a man.

Bingo. So consider for a moment that you're "hardwired" in your brain to be attracted to women, and Gay men are "hardwired" in their brain like women to be attracted to men. The research supports that. It isn't at all inconceivable according to developmental biology.

I do have to say I would feel wierd if I had to bend over or something in front of them, I would think they might be checking me out or something.

Not unless you have a nice butt, I would think. If they're checking you out, don't worry about it. If they hit on you, decline politely. If they're overly pushy, be assertive. Note that many of the women on this board do this very thing when propositioned by a straight male.


But I still wouldnt make that apparent out of respect, and to not make them feel Im judging them.

But you are indeed judging them.


I think they need mental help, I think there is a sexual problem metally for them.


WHO will provide them the mental help you advocate?


Here's the American Medical Association's comments on therapy:

[The AMA]..."opposes, the use of "reparative" or "conversion" therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation."

The American Academy of Pediatrics:

"Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation." [Policy Statement: Homosexuality and Adolescence, American Academy of Pediatrics, 1993.]

From the American Psychiatric Association:

"The potential risks of 'reparative therapy' are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone 'reparative therapy' relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed." [Position Statement: Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation, American Psychiatric Association, 1998.]

From the American Counseling Association:

[The ACA]..."opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based on ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender sexual orientation." [Resolution adopted by American Counseling Association Governing Council, March 1998.]

Further, at its 1999 World Conference, ACA adopted a position opposing the promotion of "reparative therapy" as a "cure" for individuals who are homosexual. [Action by American Counseling Association Governing Council, April 1999.]

From the National Association of Social Workers:

"NASW believes social workers have the responsibility to clients to explain the prevailing knowledge concerning sexual orientation and the lack of data reporting positive outcomes with reparative therapy. NASW discourages social workers from providing treatments designed to change sexual orientation or from referring practitioners or programs that claim to do so." [Policy Statement: Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Issues. Approved by Delegate Assembly, August 1996. Social Work Speaks, 4th ed., NASW, 1997]


I posted the American Psychological Association's official statement earlier.




Men were made to be with women, and women with men.


Not always.



Regards,


Steve


http://www.clgs.org/5/5_6.html

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I can't believe this, but in researching the above I came across a Seventh Day Adventist site that mentions all of the above professional institutions and their stances; accordingly--and amazingly--rejects the disease model and accepts homosexuality as a natural condition.

They still advocate celibacy for homosexuals, but state:

Among homosexual oriented people motivated to "change," these "ex-gay" change programs may be successful in changing sexual behavior, but do not succeed in changing sexual orientation.

http://www.sdakinship.org/anotherpov/11.htm

This stunned me. They opened their minds...just a teensy bit. This is no small victory.

Ooops...just checked it again. Its a support site for SDA's who are Gay. Sorry.

Heck of a lot of reference material on the site, though.


Regards,



Steve

 

[TCA]

Anyone ever here of Saddam and Gamore?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Anyone ever here of Saddam and Gamore?

Saddam? Yes.

Former president of the Republic of Iraq, captured by elements of the 4th infantry division subsequent to the invasion of his country by the United States.

Gamore? No.



Regards,



Steve

 

[Bob Hubbard]

:rofl:

I think he was refering to Sodom and Gomorrah.
Sidebar: I don't know how accurate this is, but it was an interesting read on the 5 cities supposedly flattened by God : http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm
and another, which seems on first glance to come to different findings:
http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/sodom.html

I've heard that the cities had been found, and that evidence was there that they had been 'nuked', but can't locate the source at the moment. Ah, found 1. It's down a ways. Careful you don't get kidnapped by aliens while reading...LOL
http://www.ufoarea.com/aas_childress_atomic2.html

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I think he was refering to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ah, yes.

Mythical Biblical Mesopotamian cities ruled by Kings Bera and Birsha, respectively. They were two of the four cities God destroyed, along with Admah and Zeboiim (Deuteronomy 29:23), sparing the city of Zoar, in which Lot took refuge.

Charles Pellegrino in his book "Return to Sodom and Gomorrah," writes about how archeologists found an ancient Mesopotamian town that had been burned in an intense congflagration. Their theory: Oil fires. The site was geologically active insofar as oil deposits (reference the tar pits the Sodomites and their allies got stuck in during a battle), and they speculated that the town was reduced when oil/gas deposits rose to the surface and ignited, wrecking everybody's week.

They had to abandon the site in '91 with the beginning of the Gulf War. No word on whether they've gone back. I suspect not.


Regards,


Steve