When a teacher can no longer teach certain techniques...

[exile]

That would be a bit depressing. But a physical problem won't stop you being a great teacher. You have an inherent gift, upnorth, and a physical problem can't take that away.

I second that heartily, Lynne.

 

[Makalakumu]

i suggest you practice seiza until your back is in better shape.

How does this help? I actually sit in seiza more often now days because it keeps everything in line. Especially when my back hurts.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

From the vids you posted, it doesn't look like you'd be having to explain jump kicks that are all that different from their standing variants, so I echo JWLuiza. Until you can do them without hurting yourself, it's best not to do them at all. My instructor often just breaks down the move into parts, cutting out the jump and instead showing the more important aspects of how the body has to move. Never hurt my training any.

Only thing that hurts my training, actually, is my own physical limitation. My flat feet mean my knees aren't in perfect shape, so I have to be careful not to overdo it, even at 21. I love jump spinning kicks, but I don't want to need to use a walker at age 30.

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

From the vids you posted, it doesn't look like you'd be having to explain jump kicks that are all that different from their standing variants, so I echo JWLuiza. Until you can do them without hurting yourself, it's best not to do them at all. My instructor often just breaks down the move into parts, cutting out the jump and instead showing the more important aspects of how the body has to move. Never hurt my training any.

Only thing that hurts my training, actually, is my own physical limitation. My flat feet mean my knees aren't in perfect shape, so I have to be careful not to overdo it, even at 21. I love jump spinning kicks, but I don't want to need to use a walker at age 30.

Tang Soo!

Interesting point, JT. I wonder how common it is for these techniques to cause physical problems? Perhaps only a very few people can continue doing them for years and years and years? Thus, it makes me wonder if the risk of practicing them is worth the benefits? What says everybody?

 

[MarkBarlow]

This may not be helpful but my first thought was, if a technique requires a high degree of flexibility or strength, perhaps it's not something that should be emphasized in the curriculum.
My background is tradition-based Jujutsu. My sensei often said that a technique that you had to warm-up to perform or that you had to wear Chuck Norris Stretch-Kickin' Jeans for wasn't good for self defense. I'm about to turn 50 and I'm able to do every technique of our kihon waza. Truthfully, I don't have the strength or flexibility I did when I learned them as a teenager, but the curriculum doesn't include anything that a middle-aged person in decent shape shouldn't be able to do.
If you're practicing techniques that cause injury in you, why teach them to someone else.
I've never studied karate, tsd, tkd or kung fu so I'm woefully ignorant of what is considered basic knowledge in any of those percussion arts. If my observation comes across as ignorant or simpleminded, blame my lack of experience.

 

[exile]

Interesting point, JT. I wonder how common it is for these techniques to cause physical problems? Perhaps only a very few people can continue doing them for years and years and years? Thus, it makes me wonder if the risk of practicing them is worth the benefits? What says everybody?

I don't want this to be taken as flippant or facetious, because I'm actually quite serious about it: fairly often, when I'm thinking about something involving some aspect of MA activity, I ask myself, what would Anko Itosu or Bushi Matsumura do, or say, or think here? In a way, they're still our guides... and I very strongly suspect that neither of them would continue to practice techs which were pretty clearly going to lead, or at least contribute in a major way, to physical incapacitation; as JT says, do you really want to set yourself up for a walker within 10 years?—ESPECIALLY given the lack of a major self-defense payoff, something which I think would have been of paramount importance to the Okinawan Founders. In your situation, I'd take their ghostly advice, and channel your resources into techs with bigger CQ/SD payoffs and way smaller wear-and-tear on your irreplaceable spinal column.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

John,
As Clint Eastwood once said;
“A man has to know his limitations!!!”

I have been dealing with L-4, L-5 and S-1 issues for many years now, and the bottom line is; if I want to wake up each morning in such condition that allows me to function normally throughout the day there are certain techniques that I simply don’t perform anymore.

Ahnesu Pahkoro Chagi is among the most damaging for me. I love doing them, and I do them very effectively. If I hit you with one, it is all over for you. The problem at this stage in my training life is that, I will be laid out in the hospital bed next to yours as a result of the trauma that my lower back will experience. In short, there are many techniques that I can administer that will be equally successful in taking down my opponent. I have to be smart enough to choose a technique that will not take me down with the opponent.

We have witnessed many of our seniors going through hip and knee replacements as well as back fusions and other assorted surgeries. If the techniques have damaging effects that have caused many great instructors to fall apart in the later years, we should take a lesson from those who came before us. If a given technique proves to be damaging over long term usage, maybe it should be taken out of the program. Why continue to teach a technique that may not be safe in the long run? Is tradition that important to us?

Grandmaster Willie Adams is one of my Isshinryu instructors here in Detroit. GM Adams has always stated that; you should never throw a kick that you would not throw “confidently” while standing on a sheet of ice. He also states that; if you want to kick a man in the head, first, kick in the knee (break his knee). When he falls to the ground, kick him in the head.

To answer your original question; if doing a specific technique causes you damage, stop doing it right away. As you age, your training has to change to accommodate your bodies ability to move, and respect your body for that which it can no longer do without issues.

I have a student that is flexible and can perform any kick as well as H.C. Hwang. When I need to demonstrate kicks that my back frowns on, I have my student demonstrate it for me. The rest of the class has the benefit of seeing it done correctly, and they understand that I am not interested in spending a week in bed on pain med’s, muscle relaxer’s and anti-inflammatory drugs…

 

[kidswarrior]

This may not be helpful but my first thought was, if a technique requires a high degree of flexibility or strength, perhaps it's not something that should be emphasized in the curriculum....My sensei often said that a technique that you had to warm-up to perform or that you had to wear Chuck Norris Stretch-Kickin' Jeans for wasn't good for self defense.

Very sound advice--cause if it really happens, we're not going to get to warm up.

I very strongly suspect that neither (Anko Itosu or Bushi Matsumura) would continue to practice techs which were pretty clearly going to lead, or at least contribute in a major way, to physical incapacitation

Pretty strong evidence, exile. :asian:

We have witnessed many of our seniors going through hip and knee replacements as well as back fusions and other assorted surgeries. If the techniques have damaging effects that have caused many great instructors to fall apart in the later years, we should take a lesson from those who came before us. If a given technique proves to be damaging over long term usage, maybe it should be taken out of the program. Why continue to teach a technique that may not be safe in the long run?

Exactly.

 

[jks9199]

I have to wonder...

Is there something missing in how many of us train in the US? Why are so many senior martial artists virtual cripples because of knee, back, or other injuries? Why would people who developed the various martial arts incorporate techniques that do so much damage to the user that they won't last a full life -- or did we miss something in the conditioning and body preparation?

Over the last 10 years or so, our chief instructor in my system has greatly emphasized the healing and health aspect of our art, teaching a yoga system and other approaches designed to improve the general health and condition of our students and to remedy the damage done in hard training. Maybe this is something that more of us should be doing...

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Addendum to my comments: I didn't say I'd stop practicing them, just said I'd be smart about using them. The body's a lot hardier than most folk would be willing to believe, used properly. It's when you overdo it that you get hurt. Anything done with wisdom and moderation can be beneficial, and vice versa.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have been dealing with L-4, L-5 and S-1 issues for many years now, and the bottom line is; if I want to wake up each morning in such condition that allows me to function normally throughout the day there are certain techniques that I simply don’t perform anymore.

Ahnesu Pahkoro Chagi is among the most damaging for me. I love doing them, and I do them very effectively. If I hit you with one, it is all over for you. The problem at this stage in my training life is that, I will be laid out in the hospital bed next to yours as a result of the trauma that my lower back will experience. In short, there are many techniques that I can administer that will be equally successful in taking down my opponent. I have to be smart enough to choose a technique that will not take me down with the opponent.

Master Penfil, when did problems with inside outside kick start? I, thankfully can perform this and the spinning variety with no problems at this moment, but it sounds like we may have similar back issues...

We have witnessed many of our seniors going through hip and knee replacements as well as back fusions and other assorted surgeries. If the techniques have damaging effects that have caused many great instructors to fall apart in the later years, we should take a lesson from those who came before us. If a given technique proves to be damaging over long term usage, maybe it should be taken out of the program. Why continue to teach a technique that may not be safe in the long run? Is tradition that important to us?

Interesting questions and interesting points. I've often thought along these lines, but the only reason I carried certain things forward was because of tradition. Perhaps, considering the history of these techniques, the tradition isn't that important.

Grandmaster Willie Adams is one of my Isshinryu instructors here in Detroit. GM Adams has always stated that; you should never throw a kick that you would not throw “confidently” while standing on a sheet of ice. He also states that; if you want to kick a man in the head, first, kick in the knee (break his knee). When he falls to the ground, kick him in the head.

Very pragmatic. Originally, all of the forms focused on low kicks that were formed after sweeps, throws or they kicked to the knees as was suggested. Some of the forms had higher kicks, but they were very few and far between. And none of them ever had techniques like I have been trying to teach...

To answer your original question; if doing a specific technique causes you damage, stop doing it right away. As you age, your training has to change to accommodate your bodies ability to move, and respect your body for that which it can no longer do without issues.

I have a student that is flexible and can perform any kick as well as H.C. Hwang. When I need to demonstrate kicks that my back frowns on, I have my student demonstrate it for me. The rest of the class has the benefit of seeing it done correctly, and they understand that I am not interested in spending a week in bed on pain med’s, muscle relaxer’s and anti-inflammatory drugs…

I am not going to perform these techniques anymore. I just can't. I don't want to laid up like this so that it gets worse and worse.

Further, having these kicks in my curriculum has always put me in a very sticky philosophical situation. I wanted to bring all of our training and all of our focus back to the forms. These techniques obviously do not fit that mold. The only reason I kept some of these things techniques is so that we at least had something in common with other Tangsoodoin. Now I'm thinking if it wouldn't be better philosophically and health wise to just drop them altogether.

Perhaps we can be an example of a new way of doing tangsoodo?

 

[Makalakumu]

This may not be helpful but my first thought was, if a technique requires a high degree of flexibility or strength, perhaps it's not something that should be emphasized in the curriculum.
My background is tradition-based Jujutsu. My sensei often said that a technique that you had to warm-up to perform or that you had to wear Chuck Norris Stretch-Kickin' Jeans for wasn't good for self defense. I'm about to turn 50 and I'm able to do every technique of our kihon waza. Truthfully, I don't have the strength or flexibility I did when I learned them as a teenager, but the curriculum doesn't include anything that a middle-aged person in decent shape shouldn't be able to do.

If you're practicing techniques that cause injury in you, why teach them to someone else.

I've never studied karate, tsd, tkd or kung fu so I'm woefully ignorant of what is considered basic knowledge in any of those percussion arts. If my observation comes across as ignorant or simpleminded, blame my lack of experience.

Mark, how well do you do with the really high falls? Lets say someone really cranked you up high with tomoenage so that you basically are doing a no hand sutemi in the air and landing pretty flat.

One of my students is a couple inches taller then me but had REALLY long legs so that when he throws me, even when he takes it easy, I can't get my hands on the ground to do a decent roll. I pretty much always hit pretty hard...

 

[Makalakumu]

I have to wonder...

Is there something missing in how many of us train in the US? Why are so many senior martial artists virtual cripples because of knee, back, or other injuries? Why would people who developed the various martial arts incorporate techniques that do so much damage to the user that they won't last a full life -- or did we miss something in the conditioning and body preparation?

Over the last 10 years or so, our chief instructor in my system has greatly emphasized the healing and health aspect of our art, teaching a yoga system and other approaches designed to improve the general health and condition of our students and to remedy the damage done in hard training. Maybe this is something that more of us should be doing...

Interesting points. How did it get like this? Is it because of the sport focus? I wonder if gymnasts and certain martial artists share many of the same issues?

The biggest difference, however, is that mosts gymnasts quit at a certain time. Martial artists tend to stick with it far longer, probably compounding the damage.

 

[MarkBarlow]

Mark, how well do you do with the really high falls? Lets say someone really cranked you up high with tomoenage so that you basically are doing a no hand sutemi in the air and landing pretty flat.

One of my students is a couple inches taller then me but had REALLY long legs so that when he throws me, even when he takes it easy, I can't get my hands on the ground to do a decent roll. I pretty much always hit pretty hard...

Thanks to a Sensei who required everyone to have good ukemi, I can still take a decent fall. To be honest, taking the falls is the easy part, someone else is doing all the work. All I have to do is relax and know when to breathe. For what it's worth, I'm 6'4" and 220lbs. Just about any fall I take is a high fall.

 

[Lynne]

The owner of our school, Master R, had knee surgery in September of last year. Our school is three floors; we have a weight room below and two dojangs above. Master R was going up and down the steps on crutches, back and forth, here and there. I don't think he could stand to sit down for a minute. One of his senior instructors did take over the classes for awhile. It wasn't long before Master R was out on the floor, on crutches, instructing. He was going from student-to-student, correcting their legs for wallkicks, correcting their forms, their combinations, whatever.

He was off of the crutches in a few months and is back to teaching as usual. He's a fortunate man.

However, if he were to be on crutches and not fable to ully demonstrate, I'm not sure it would make much difference to the student. His energy is very motivating. I wish he could teach all of our classes.

I'm sure as an instructor, though, he did feel like something was missing when he couldn't be on the floor demonstrating. I'm just saying that having him there on the floor is one of the greatest motivators because of his energy/teaching ability.

 

[MarkBarlow]

The owner of our school, Master R, had knee surgery in September of last year. Our school is three floors; we have a weight room below and two dojangs above. Master R was going up and down the steps on crutches, back and forth, here and there. I don't think he could stand to sit down for a minute. One of his senior instructors did take over the classes for awhile. It wasn't long before Master R was out on the floor, on crutches, instructing. He was going from student-to-student, correcting their legs for wallkicks, correcting their forms, their combinations, whatever.

He was off of the crutches in a few months and is back to teaching as usual. He's a fortunate man.

However, if he were to be on crutches and not fable to ully demonstrate, I'm not sure it would make much difference to the student. His energy is very motivating. I wish he could teach all of our classes.

I'm sure as an instructor, though, he did feel like something was missing when he couldn't be on the floor demonstrating. I'm just saying that having him there on the floor is one of the greatest motivators because of his energy/teaching ability.

I understand his inability to stay away. Over the years, whenever I've had an injury or illness eat into my training or teaching time, it was incredibly difficult to stay off the mat. Invariably, I'd find myself hobbling out on crutches or with a cane to offer corrections or just to challenge the current young buck who needed to be beat on by a crippled old man.

 

[Lynne]

I understand his inability to stay away. Over the years, whenever I've had an injury or illness eat into my training or teaching time, it was incredibly difficult to stay off the mat. Invariably, I'd find myself hobbling out on crutches or with a cane to offer corrections or just to challenge the current young buck who needed to be beat on by a crippled old man.

A bamboo cane???!

 

[MarkBarlow]

A bamboo cane???!

Actually, I use an oak cane but I put the cane or crutches aside if I'm going to play.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wanted to make a couple short comments, but they have sort of already been hit upon by others here, so I guess I'll just reinforce some things that have been said.

If a technique has an inherent high-risk factor of injury, maybe it should be eliminated from the curriculum altogether. What good is it, if you risk incapacitating yourself every time you do it? And just because you could do it when you were a teenager is no reason to keep doing it once it becomes clear to you that this risk is present and is real. And do your students a favor by eliminating these things, explaining to them WHY you are doing so, and don't hand that risk off to them. Learn from YOUR mistakes, rather than perpetuate risky techniques just because they were handed down to you. Make your own curriculum smarter than it was.

 

[kidswarrior]

Make your own curriculum smarter than it was.

This is classic, FC. May I use it?

BTW, the ghost in the machine tells me it's too soon to rep you again as I wanted to. ;(