What's your instructor's rank?

[Earl Weiss]

I wouldn't say founder of Modern TKD at all. I would just say founder of the ITF. Nothing more and nothing less.

I am not saying Choi didn't have a say in the development, but he is not the founder of TKD. TKD was group effort not the single effort of one man.

This is an opinion. Nothing more.
Others are equaly valid. I would reccomend "A Killing Art" to anyone who is interested in following the political machinations and development.

 

[miguksaram]

This is an opinion. Nothing more.
Others are equaly valid. I would reccomend "A Killing Art" to anyone who is interested in following the political machinations and development.

On opinoin? So you are saying Lee, Won-kuk, Ro, Byung-jick, Uhm, Woon-kyu, Lee, Nam-suk, Park, Chul-hee, and the others had nothing to do with the development and that Choi, Hong-hi was the only person to develope TKD? Please tell me you are not entertaining such an idea.

 

[miguksaram]

I talked to my wife about the number 3 and 9. Neither have significance in Korea. '4' does because the way it is written as 'death' in Chinese. This is why you find some buildings without a '4th' floor....like ours with no 13th floor.

 

[Earl Weiss]

On opinoin? So you are saying Lee, Won-kuk, Ro, Byung-jick, Uhm, Woon-kyu, Lee, Nam-suk, Park, Chul-hee, and the others had nothing to do with the development and that Choi, Hong-hi was the only person to develope TKD? Please tell me you are not entertaining such an idea.

First and foremost we would need to agree on what is TKD. I for one do not accept an all inclusive definition. I understand others do.

Lee Won Kuk was Tang Soo Do which was Koreanized Shotokan.
Ro, Byong -jick was a Shotokan classmate of Lee Won-Kuk, and founded the Song Moo Kwan, Founder of the Korea Kong Soo do Assoc. , Uhm Woon Kyu, also a Chung Do Kwan Luminary. Becoming it's head and later a big mover and Shaker in Kukki / WTF circles.

Lee Nam -Suk, was a Chang Moo Kwan founder, and Park Chul Hee taught Kwon Bup and founded the Kang Duk Kwan.

I consider all these kwans to be forrunners of TKD, pioneering martial artists to be sure. Some consider any Korean korean who was kicking and punching in 1955 or earlier to somehow have what they were doing transformed into TKD when the name was coined.

What they did not only predated the name Taekwon-Do, but many resisted the use of the name preferring instead, Tae Soo Do, and Kong Soo Do, etc. until they decided to capitalize on the popularity of the name.

I see little or no effort by these people in the 1950's or 1960's to create a unified system that could be taught on an international scale. I see little or no effort by these people to train and dispatch instructors internationaly in the 1950's and 1960's. I see little or no effort from these people to train and dispatch international demo teams in the 1950's and 1960's. I see little or no effort by these people in the 1950's and 1960's to travel the globe and help influence Korean instructors abroad to adopt a unified name and system.

So, did I say General Choi was the only person to develop TKD? Not by a long shot. He had the assistance of numerous Korean martial artists many of whom were Chung Do Kwan Alums. He was able to recruit them into the military division he headed and use their resources.

 

[dortiz]

Thats not fair reporting. What was Gen Chois original training? Those folks did work together to form the Kukkiwon based TKD and arguably now a larger world wide based art and one that went to the Olympics. A movement that he split from at that time.
You could even argue that he became a roadblock to his own original mission in that case.
I think its a lot more of an even set of players than the post represents.

Dave O.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Thats not fair reporting. What was Gen Chois original training? Those folks did work together to form the Kukkiwon based TKD and arguably now a larger world wide based art and one that went to the Olympics. A movement that he split from at that time.
You could even argue that he became a roadblock to his own original mission in that case.
I think its a lot more of an even set of players than the post represents.

Dave O.

What was not fair reporting.

Original Training was Shotokan as it was with many of the others. The big difference is that the original Kwans changed nothing but chose to adopt a name when it became convenient to do so.

Kukkiwon was something that happened much later, mainly post 1970, almost 20 years after TKD had been founded, instructors recruited and developed, and dispatched throughout the world.

The Kukki plan was a repeat of something General Choi had done more than a decade earlier, although admittedly more of a collaberative effort, And, was successful for the same reasons plus some adittional ones.

Government backing & resources and influence. One addittional reason was that Initialy the Kukkiwon welcomed a plethora of systems. Very smart move. Later, they did and are doing exactly what General Choi did earlier. Create a new unified system with a single set of technical parameters so it could be taught and spread uniformly on a worldwide basis. This basicaly relegated many of the Kwans to a fraternal type group withou unique systems.

 

[FierySquidFace]

Clint Bodungen
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Doug Vaughn
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[Dana]

What was not fair reporting.

"Original Training was Shotokan as it was with many of the others. The big difference is that the original Kwans changed nothing but chose to adopt a name when it became convenient to do so."

Correction, Choi had an unsubstantiated claim to a 2nd dan Shotokan. Honorary 4th dan Chung Do Kwan, revoked, for claiming high rank he did not have.

Choi's Oh Do Kwan was likely an outgrowth of his familiarity with the Chung Do Kwan (Tang Soo Do). Admittedly, he collaborated with a student to create new forms with a slightly different flavor, but even though, forms like Won Hyo clearly show where he was coming from (Pyong Ahn Ee dan). Choi "liked" the name Taekwondo and continued to used his military/political position to push his agenda. This included the ability to send folks to other countries.

It is all pretty murky, and yes, Choi did push for unification before the Kukkiwon. It is just hard to tell if he was pushing an art or an agenda. Non-withstanding, he was a VERY important player in Taekwondo history.
However, the current name is just that, a name; Kong Soo Do, Taesoodo or Tangsoodo probably would have went down the same road with government backing.

I do respect the man greatly, but others have also made significant contributions .

D

 

[Earl Weiss]

Correction, Choi had an unsubstantiated claim to a 2nd dan Shotokan. Honorary 4th dan Chung Do Kwan, revoked, for claiming high rank he did not have.

D

If you are interested in "Corrections" or correct reporting why do you leave out what else was in the advertisement revoking his rank, what happened later to those individuals as well as the person taking out the ad?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well, since this is all included in his 1965 book, where he was "Coming from" was readily apparent. Yet that same book contained many of the refinements, and revisions for the new system.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Perhaps my choice of words could have been better with regard to "Founcer".

"Perspective' may have been a better choice than "Opinion".

 

[Earl Weiss]

This is an interesting perspective with regard to TKD being just a name. It leads to some interesting questions that need answering;
1. If it is just a name, why the need for a name at all? If it were merely a name for various martial arts to organize under, no name of a martial art would be needed. You simply need a name of an organization like KoreanMartial Arts org.

2. Further, why did the name / group exclude certain groups like the Hapkido or Yudo guys?

3. Was it supposed to be differnt than what Kano, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba had done?

4. Why has KKW now seen fit to create a single system for TKD?

I believe you are correct. If someone else had been succesful in promoting another name, developing instructors, recruiting instructors, dispatching people to teach ad demo under that new name, than that person would have been the founder of what was being done under that name.

 

[dancingalone]

1. If it is just a name, why the need for a name at all? If it were merely a name for various martial arts to organize under, no name of a martial art would be needed. You simply need a name of an organization like KoreanMartial Arts org.

2. Further, why did the name / group exclude certain groups like the Hapkido or Yudo guys?

Just my opinion, but I think there was a clear desire to control TKD from the top down, hence the need for a definitive name. As for leaving out the hapkido people, surely it was understood up front that the kwan heads and General Choi didn't have the training or longevity to be considered the seniors in "hapkido" circles. They would have had no credibility at all in trying to organize the hapkidoists. And if you research hapkido/hwa rang do/kuk sool, you know they went through their own version of TKD politics.

3. Was it supposed to be differnt than what Kano, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba had done?

I don't necessarily agree that Kano, Funakoshi, or Ueshiba all had the same goals. Nonetheless, it's true that their successors have organized a top down hierarchy as I believe the TKD pioneers meant to do also.

4. Why has KKW now seen fit to create a single system for TKD?

Because they 'won' the TKD civil war and naturally they are promoting their idea of what TKD should be. Surely this is no different from any other faction. We all have our own curricula and what we want to teach or showcase.

 

[CDKJudoka]

Okay, update on the info for my KJN.

His 9th Dan cert was signed by Lee, Won Kuk in 1982.

My Judo instructor is a 6th Dan USJA

 

[d1jinx]

My instructors rank is........

10 GUP/ White belt.

because everytime a white belt walks in.... I learn something new.

(ps. but the guy I answer too is an 8th Dan)

 

[ralphmcpherson]

my instructor was a 6th dan but has just moved north so Im now training under his instructor who is 7th dan.

 

[terryl965]

Mine is a 8th but at times he acts like a 5 year old, vy the way that is a good thing every once in a while...