whats wrong with this video?

[Kframe]

Over on sherdog, in ask the fighters forum, a fellow member has a interesting problem. He has a upcoming fight with a guy with over 20 years of aikido practice. So they are giving him tips on beating him. Of course I mentioned that some styles of aikido have more strikes then others, there are differences in styles.

Then one fellow posts this video and says there is nothing real in it.Its a pre war aikido video. He has appoint I saw no strikes, at least any more then I would normally think with aikido. I watched it and it does appear as if the guys are throwing them selvs for him.

So for my own enlightenment, were they all just tossing themselves, and the guy was right that it was all fake, or am I missing something?

Secondly if that mma guy was on this forum asking for tips on defeating this aikidoka, what would you tell him?

 

[jks9199]

Not going to try to address how to defeat the guy, because too much depends on what he's actually doing when he fights.

As to "fake"... The video is a demonstration; they're not fighting him. And if they don't roll with many of those techniques, they'll be injured. Watch closely at about 1:45 or 1:50, for example. They're moving in ways that they can't initiate from where they started... So, was it fake? Sure, as much as any demo is staged and fake. But if they hadn't responded and accepted the technique, they'd have been hurt.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your opponent gives you that opportunity and

- you have to finish it, that's "demonstration". A "demonstration" is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real.
- he has to finish for you, that will be 100% "fake" by definition.

If your opponent doesn't give you that opportunity, you have to create that opportunity, and also you have to finish it, that's called "fighting".

 

[K-man]

As JKS said, it is a demonstration. The attacks are committed attacks so it takes very little effort to effect the throw. The Ukes are 'receiving' for him so they are not resisting. Ueshiba was one of the greatest martial artists ever so to suggest that what he was doing was fake is a grave insult both to the man and to what he gave to the world of martial art.
As to defeating an Aikidoka with 20 years experience, it is the same as a boxer with 20 years experience or a judoka or anybody else. Years of training have nothing to do with ability and most Aikidoka probably wouldn't be interested in competition unless they come from the Tomiki school. One assumes we are talking of an MMA type fight so I would also assume that your Aikidoka has also cross trained. Therefore the advice would be to train the same way that you would for any other fight.

As for defeating a man like Ueshiba, I don't believe many people could. Before he developed Aikido he was a top exponent do Daito Ryu complete with all the vital point fighting. His point of view changed over the years to the point where he felt that people didn't have to fight and his ability was such that he could match anyone until he was a very old man.
:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Over on sherdog, in ask the fighters forum, a fellow member has a interesting problem. He has a upcoming fight with a guy with over 20 years of aikido practice. So they are giving him tips on beating him. Of course I mentioned that some styles of aikido have more strikes then others, there are differences in styles.

Then one fellow posts this video and says there is nothing real in it.Its a pre war aikido video. He has appoint I saw no strikes, at least any more then I would normally think with aikido. I watched it and it does appear as if the guys are throwing them selvs for him.

So for my own enlightenment, were they all just tossing themselves, and the guy was right that it was all fake, or am I missing something?

Secondly if that mma guy was on this forum asking for tips on defeating this aikidoka, what would you tell him?

Hi Kframe,

Honestly, there's a conflict of context going on here. The guys over on Sherdog, being an MMA forum, have a particular context in mind when they think of training and fighting.... which is fine for what they do. But there can be a tendency to dismiss, or even decry, anything that doesn't match their ideas and ideals. Let's deal with the video first.

As JKS said, it's a demonstration... it's showing, not techniques, not self defence, not fighting, but applications of principles of Aikido in a range of situations (seated, standing, against groups, and against weapons)... but it's important to note that none of those situations were combative, nor self defence ones. So looking at it as an example of "fighting" is to not understand what was being shown... and, as a result, the fellow posting that "nothing there is real" doesn't know what he's looking at. Within the principles being shown, the most common aspects were those of pacing, distancing (incredibly subtle... watch Ueshiba closely, he's always just millimeters out of the reach of his uke, forcing them to over-extend their own balance, which enabled him to easily take them just a moment further, hence the seeming ease that they were falling over with. Which brings us to the question of "were they all just tossing themselves"?

Honestly, yes. Yes, they were. But you need to understand why, because the taking of ukemi in this manner in no way invalidates the action itself. Within arts such as Aikido (and many Jujutsu systems, for that matter), the taking of ukemi (receiving), taking the form of rolls and breakfalls, is not done to make the technique work... or to make the performer "look good"... if the technique doesn't work, there's no need to perform ukemi... if it does, and you don't take ukemi properly, you end up getting very badly hurt. I've shown my guys what throws look like when ukemi isn't taken (ie what happens when applied to someone who isn't trained to receive them), and it ain't pretty....

As for defeating an Aikidoka in an MMA contest? Train MMA. It's what it's for.

 

[Kframe]

CP that goes a little way to explaining why ukemi is so stressed in the bbt. I honestly thought ukemi was incase I tripped on a stump or hole in the ground. I figured it was a demo. Im going to go back and watch it again to see the points you guys have made.

Is there any non demo videos of Ueshiba doing his thing?

 

[K-man]

CP that goes a little way to explaining why ukemi is so stressed in the bbt. I honestly thought ukemi was incase I tripped on a stump or hole in the ground. I figured it was a demo. Im going to go back and watch it again to see the points you guys have made.

Is there any non demo videos of Ueshiba doing his thing?

Because Aikido is not normally seen in a competitive environment, and because of ukemi, many people dismiss Aikido as less effective that other MAs. In fact it is the same as every other MA. There are good schools and there are some that are not so good. However, what Ueshiba had was a very highly developed use of the mind which made him almost impossible to move, even though he was only a small man. If you watch this video with that in mind you might be able to see what I am describing but I don't expect you to understand it if you haven't experienced that type of thing first hand.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw&desktop_uri=/watch?v=XoDK3XuvZWw
i can promise you, none of the Ukes in this video are taking a dive and when you get to the kneeling bits, they are resisting with all their might.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Here's another clip. Go to the 2:18 part and you will see a slow motion clip of Ueshiba moving two guys who are obviously holding with all their strength.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8V7NHLlmT3Y

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We all know that wrestlers like to use "single leg" and "double legs". Can you throw your opponent without controlling his leg/legs? If you let your opponent to have too much freedom on his legs, it's very easy for him to escape your attack. In the following clips, it's easy to see that since one of his opponent's legs is hooked, it's harder for his opponent to get away. That will increase the successful rate.

Not trying to compare the style difference here (the word "style" has no meaning to me) but to compare whether one approach is more "combat effective" than the other.

 

[K-man]

We all know that wrestlers like to use "single leg" and "double legs". Can you throw your opponent without controlling his leg/legs? If you let your opponent to have too much freedom on his legs, it's very easy for him to escape your attack. In the following clips, it's easy to see that since one of his opponent's legs is hooked, it's harder for his opponent to get away. That will increase the successful rate.

Not trying to compare the style difference here (the word "style" has no meaning to me) but to compare whether one approach is more "combat effective" than the other.

The difference is that in Aikido you do not put pressure on the leg. We do step behind but we don't use any physical force against the leg. To do so gives your opponent the ability to resist the takedown by pushing back with his leg. The foot behind is not really part of the technique but simply ensures that your opponent can't step back.

For what it's worth I teach a very similar takedown in Goju karate, again with absolutely no pressure on the leg. The technique you show is also in Goju but it is totally different to anything you will see in Aikido.
:asian:

 

[Kframe]

Thanks guys for the interesting videos.. I was impressed how well he moved well into his 80's. Looks like a interesting art. I wonder why its not more popular?

I liked how he was always moving with the bad guys. Using very little energy. Such energy conservation.

 

[oftheherd1]

CP that goes a little way to explaining why ukemi is so stressed in the bbt. I honestly thought ukemi was incase I tripped on a stump or hole in the ground. I figured it was a demo. Im going to go back and watch it again to see the points you guys have made.

Is there any non demo videos of Ueshiba doing his thing?

I think you will have to watch many times with most of what he is showing. Even then some of it may not make sense to you. It is an old movie, and things move fast. I had to watch some of the things several times to recognize for instance, when he trapped both arms for a throw. And as far as going with the flow, as already mentioned, you don't have to do that, but a joint will be damaged if you don't. Also watch closely how he shifts his hands quickly to give him leverage to force movement that can't be resisted without bones or joints being damaged. It's all there, but often hard to see, and harder to understand if you haven't used some of the techniques also.

 

[sopraisso]

I'm convinced that aikido is awesome... if you really know to use it. I would say that Ueshiba was not a normal guy, he really knew his thing probably more than anyone will ever know. I even wonder if aikido hasn't actually died with him (at the of aikido really to use) - something different would've remained, something that can still be applied, but hardly with same effect.

Also, note that even Ueshiba (cited by Gozo Shioda) himself said atemi (strikes) makes 70% of real fighting, so you shouldn't take these demos as the only essence of aikido - harmonizing with the opponent's energy goes greatly beyond using that energy for a throwing technique.

For better reference on aikido, I would deeply recommend the book Aikido Shugyo by Gozo Shioda, by far the best work I've ever read on the subject. It would certainly be appreciated by any serious martial artist.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When the distance between you and your opponent is too far (the gap). you give your opponent too much freedom to respond, your throw won't be effective.

When you control your opponent's wrist, since his elbow can still bend, you are not really controlling his arm. In order to control your opponent's arm, you have to control his elbow joint. This way the distance between you and your opponent is shorter and you don't have that "gap" issue.

When your opponent locks your wrist and apply

- downward pressure on your wrist, you can raise your elbow to release that pressure.
- horizontal pressure on your wrist, you can turn your body to release that pressure.
- pulling pressure on your wrist, you can bend your elbow, step in toward your opponent to release that pressure.

If you can control his elbow joint and if you can also control his leg/legs, you have just taken away his possible counters.

The following is a throw from the wrist holding, no leg/legs control, no body control.

In order to make this throw work, you have to make your opponent's arm complete straight. When your opponent's arm is straight, if you twist his arm, he has to flip in order to release that pressure. This is a "demo technique" that I have never seen it used on any tournament mat. The reason is simple, There is just too much "gap" between you and your opponent. Since your opponent's elbow, body, legs are all free, it's easy for him to escape or counter.

 

[K-man]

When the distance between you and your opponent is too far (the gap). you give your opponent too much freedom to respond, your throw won't be effective.

When you control your opponent's wrist, since his elbow can still bend, you are not really controlling his arm. In order to control your opponent's arm, you have to control his elbow joint. This way the distance between you and your opponent is shorter and you don't have that "gap" issue.

When your opponent locks your wrist and apply

- downward pressure on your wrist, you can raise your elbow to release that pressure.
- horizontal pressure on your wrist, you can turn your body to release that pressure.
- pulling pressure on your wrist, you can bend your elbow, step in toward your opponent to release that pressure.

If you can control his elbow joint and if you can also control his leg/legs, you have just taken away his possible counters.

The following is a throw from the wrist holding, no leg/legs control, no body control.

In order to make this throw work, you have to make your opponent's arm complete straight. When your opponent's arm is straight, if you twist his arm, he has to flip in order to release that pressure. This is a "demo technique" that I have never seen it used on any tournament mat. The reason is simple, There is just too much "gap" between you and your opponent. Since your opponent's elbow, body, legs are all free, it's easy for him to escape or counter.

I think you need to recognise the different skill levels in Aikido. As a beginner you are using basic biomechanics and as you say the greater the distance the less chance of the throw being effective. As the skill level rises you start to use your opponent's momentum and the distance is less relevant. You are emphasising pressure on the wrist, lifting the elbow etc. and yes that is important when you are analysing the technical nature of the throw. When it comes to real application and a highly trained practitioner the technical bit has nothing to do with the throw, it just happens. Shuhari again.

I have no idea what style of MA these guys practise but could I suggest the grip taken is like the one we would call yonkyo.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA

Normally I would just use it as a takedown and it can be used for elbow and shoulder destruction. The throw is effected by the receiver rolling (throwing himself) out of the technique. In real life that wouldn't happen. When applied quickly you cannot flip out of it. If you look at the clip you will see Nage is pulling his hand down and back to allow the 'flip'. If the hands come straight down or slightly across Uke's body the only way left is face down onto the ground. Could I suggest the reason you don't see this in a tournament is that it would probably be outside most of the rules, unless used with minimal pressure, then it reduces its effectiveness.
:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just asked my wife to use this lock on me (she has black belt in TKD and Chinese wrestling).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

The moment that her left hand was on my right elbow, she had a total control on my right arm. The moment that she moved her left hand to my forearm near to my wrist, the moment that I could bend my right elbow and there was nothing that she could stop me from doing that. If I have my hand on my opponent's elbow, I'll never give up that control until my opponent is on the ground. I don't want to give my opponent any chance to be able to bend his elbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLxlpxQZ9jM&feature=youtu.be

 

[jks9199]

I just asked my wife to use this lock on me (she has black belt in TKD and Chinese wrestling).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

The moment that her left hand was on my right elbow, she had a total control on my right arm. The moment that she moved her left hand to my forearm near to my wrist, the moment that I could bend my right elbow and there was nothing that she could stop me from doing that. If I have my hand on my opponent's elbow, I'll never give up that control until my opponent is on the ground. I don't want to give my opponent any chance to be able to bend his elbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLxlpxQZ9jM&feature=youtu.be

There can be a major difference between simply presenting an arm to be "done unto" and actually having a strike intercepted; that forward momentum and energy in the arm can let you do things that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise. There's a reason the technique has survived in several arts, in recognizable form. Apart from that -- the precise technique may not be the lesson, but may show a principle or tactic, rather than a specific application.

 

[K-man]

I just asked my wife to use this lock on me (she has black belt in TKD and Chinese wrestling).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

The moment that her left hand was on my right elbow, she had a total control on my right arm. The moment that she moved her left hand to my forearm near to my wrist, the moment that I could bend my right elbow and there was nothing that she could stop me from doing that. If I have my hand on my opponent's elbow, I'll never give up that control until my opponent is on the ground. I don't want to give my opponent any chance to be able to bend his elbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLxlpxQZ9jM&feature=youtu.be

Unfortunately it seems she doesn't have a blackbelt in aikido. A lot of aikido schools don't teach it because it is the hardest of all the locks to apply. It is also the only one that continues to cause pain after it is released because it works by crushing the radial (I think) nerve against the radius bone using your index finger like a blade. If I have you in yonkyo I can guarantee you won't be going anywhere but down. You must have the correct positioning of the hands and the correct alignment of your opponent's arm to make it work.
:asian:


Edit to add video .... http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ksGerDJYcc8

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Unfortunately it seems she doesn't have a blackbelt in aikido. A lot of aikido schools don't teach it because it is the hardest of all the locks to apply. It is also the only one that continues to cause pain after it is released because it works by crushing the radial (I think) nerve against the radius bone using your index finger like a blade. If I have you in yonkyo I can guarantee you won't be going anywhere but down. You must have the correct positioning of the hands and the correct alignment of your opponent's arm to make it work.
:asian:

Edit to add video .... http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ksGerDJYcc8

When your right hand is on your opponent's wrist. if your left hand is on his forearm (instead of on his elbow), your rotation axis is much shorter than when your left hand is on his elbow. I'm just talking about simple physics here.

In the previous clip, the "downward" force is used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

In your new clip,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksGerDJYcc8&app=desktop

you are using "twisting into horizontal" force. Your right palm edge is cutting into his right wrist horizontally Your opponent's raising elbow won't be able to solve his problem. He will need to turn to his left and face you (his right arm will be behind his back) to release your "twisting into horizontal" force.

In your clip, from 0.15 to 0.40, before your left hand gets control on his right arm, he could release his right grip on your right wrist anytime he wants to. I had learned a similar lock like this when I was 8 years old. In TCMA, it's called "大缠丝(Da Chan Si) - big wrist lock". That concern always bother me even today.

When you apply this lock on your opponent, if your opponent has "body unification force (I believe Aikido calls it "water flow through your arm")" as good as you do, your lock won't work on him. The locking is always harder to execute than the throwing.

 

[K-man]

When your right hand is on your opponent's wrist. if your left hand is on his forearm (instead of on his elbow), your rotation axis is much shorter than when your left hand is on his elbow. I'm just talking about simple physics here. Please notice that the "downward" force is used.

It might be simple physics but pressure on the nerve negates the need for a "rotation axis". Let's call that simple biology!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=4LPXiroJPCA&app=desktop

In your new clip, you are using "twisting" force. Your opponent's raising elbow won't be able to solve his problem. He will need to turn to his left and face you (his right arm will be behind his back) to release your "twisting" force.

Not using twisting force at all! It is like cutting with a sword. He cannot turn when the hold is in place. It can be performed as tenkan or irimi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksGerDJYcc8&app=desktop

When you apply this lock on your opponent, if your opponent has "body unification force (I believe Aikido calls it "water flow through your arm")" as good as you do, your lock won't work on him. The locking is always harder to execute than the throwing.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to your concept of "body unification force". I have never heard of "water flow through the arm.

You have indicated that your wife, under your guidance, could not apply this hold. I would respectfully suggest that you have demonstrated you do not know how it works or how to apply it. The discussion is academic.
:asian: