What's the difference between a Sifu and Sijo?

[Joab]

Just curious, is it the same title merely spelled differently or does it have more significance than that?.

 

[David43515]

The ranking system in most Chinese arts is based almost on a family type of relationship.Sifu is your teacher. (The characters actually translate as 'teaching father') I believe Sijo is your teacher`s teacher.

It`s been too many years since I trained with native speakers, so I`ve let my Chinese terminology slip. If I was wrong I`m sure someone more up to date will correct me shortly.

 

[geezer]

My Chinese sifu explained it like this: When you dedicate yourself to a Chinese system and to a particular instructor, you become part of a "kung-fu family". Sifu means your "teacher-father" (your personal instructor), Si-Gung is your "teacher-grandfather" (your teacher's personal instructor or sifu's sifu), Si-jo would be your si-gung's teacher, or your ancestor, forebearer, etc. in the system.

There is another word pronounced "si-fu", but written differently in Chinese, that simply indicates that one has mastery or accomplishment in a skill. In this sense any instuctor can be referred to respectfully as "sifu", even though they are not your personal sifu (teacher-father).

Interestingly, one of my former "kung fu nephews", a student of one of my "si-dais", or younger kung-fu brothers, broke away from our family, declared himself a "Master" (I've even heard one of his associates call him Dai-Sifu or "grandmaster"), and has publicly taken on the title of "Si-Jo" or "kung fu great-grandfather". Well he does resemble Santa Claus a bit, but other than that, I don't get it. Check out my thread titled, "You too can be a WC Master".

 

[Xinglu]

If we are talking about 始祖 (shizu or in cantonese sijo), then it means "primogenitor/founder of a school or trade". And shifu (师&#29238 is your instructor (as has already been pointed out).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unless your talking Korean then it is a type of Poetry

I shouldn't ask this because I suspect the answer will annoy me but where did you hear or see shizu (sijo) used)

Sifu is your teacher
Shigung is your teacher's teacher

 

[geezer]

I shouldn't ask this because I suspect the answer will annoy me but where did you hear or see shizu (sijo) used)

Annoy? Yeah, me too. I also bristle at people calling themselves "Dai-Sifu" or "Grandmaster", like being a "master" isn't honor enough... although in some cases I accept it as a concession to Western commercial expectations. I know one master of a Filipino martial art who has adopted the title "Grandmaster" at the urging of other members of an organization that he associates with. During a private lesson, I asked him if he minded whether I continued to address him by his first name like I had many years before when I trained with him. He said, "Sure. Why not? Just don't do it in front of the others in the group seminars."

I guess it's just that when every Tom, Dick and Harry call themselves. "master", a real master has to use an inflated title just to try to keep pace with the rank inflation. By contrast, I had to work with the Eskrima group I train with now for two years just to earn the rank of "student"--and informally given at that!. After student, comes the rank of "assistant instructor". One guy has acheived that. He has been doing FMA his whole life and has been in this system like 8-10 years now. The headman of the whole system is simply a "maestro" or "instructor", and he goes by his first name in class. If that's not sufficiently impressive, you can always spar with him. Or not. Now that's an honest ranking system.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Annoy? Yeah, me too. I also bristle at people calling themselves "Dai-Sifu" or "Grandmaster", like being a "master" isn't honor enough... although in some cases I accept it as a concession to Western commercial expectations. I know one master of a Filipino martial art who has adopted the title "Grandmaster" at the urging of other members of an organization that he associates with. During a private lesson, I asked him if he minded whether I continued to address him by his first name like I had many years before when I trained with him. He said, "Sure. Why not? Just don't do it in front of the others in the group seminars."

I guess it's just that when every Tom, Dick and Harry call themselves. "master", a real master has to use an inflated title just to try to keep pace with the rank inflation. By contrast, I had to work with the Eskrima group I train with now for two years just to earn the rank of "student"--and informally given at that!. After student, comes the rank of "assistant instructor". One guy has acheived that. He has been doing FMA his whole life and has been in this system like 8-10 years now. The headman of the whole system is simply a "maestro" or "instructor", and he goes by his first name in class. If that's not sufficiently impressive, you can always spar with him. Or not. Now that's an honest ranking system.

Funny thing about that title (Daisifu) Da shifu in the North on mainland China it is used as sarcasm and an insult.

One of the Chen family used it (in Mandarin) on my first sifu (both are from China). Translation “He must be a Grandmaster (Da Shifu) he knows over 100 styles”

 

[Xinglu]

I have seem people who have their own unaffiliated schools call themselves (or be titled) "Shizu." Personally, unless they have created something truly unique, I'd be wary of such a title. To to contrary I know heads of entire systems that go by just "Shifu."

Personally, I don't know why anyone would want to be anything more then a shifu.

 

[Joab]

Unless your talking Korean then it is a type of Poetry

I shouldn't ask this because I suspect the answer will annoy me but where did you hear or see shizu (sijo) used)

I was looking up my old Sifu in Wing Chun and found he now calls himself a "Sijo". It is likely because he now has a number of instructors under him and there have been other schools formed with his specific type of
Wing Chun he calls "Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu" I tried to email him regarding the new title, but the email was bounced back to me as undeliverable.


Sifu is your teacher
Shigung is your teacher's teacher

Thanks for your response.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

In my experience, when titles as this are adopted in ignorance of what they mean and how they are used by the culture where it comes from, it makes me doubt the level of skill and knowledge that they have...

since they didn't even know about the little tid bit of the title thing.

When they ask me to call them with some title, I do it hesitantly and it leaves a bad taste, yet if I respect them, I'll call them Maestro (master; teacher).

Personally, I'm moving away from the Chinese titles... at most I'm called Si Fu, or profesor or maestro. Here, school teachers are called maestro. University teachers are called profesor.

Some in the school call me Johnny Market. Go figure.

In the end, the skill and respect is still there, no matter the title. In my view, the titles are ways for you to show respect and esteem to others that deserve it.

To me, being considered a teacher is quite big. No matter how big and/or pompous the title, that is what you are.

Juan Mercado

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was looking up my old Sifu in Wing Chun and found he now calls himself a "Sijo". It is likely because he now has a number of instructors under him and there have been other schools formed with his specific type of
Wing Chun he calls "Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu" I tried to email him regarding the new title, but the email was bounced back to me as undeliverable.

Thanks for your response.

Yup, I was right, the answer did annoy me. Just another example of a guy giving himself a title because he thinks it is "better" than Sifu and proving that he has absolutely no understanding what-so-ever of the language and culture.

In CMA circles the title of "Sifu" if in fact one is a real Sifu is a pretty big deal and a rather high level title.

Just a note; My Taijiquan Sifu who has been at Taijiquan for over 50 years who was trained in and from China goes by his first name or Sifu. My Sanda Sifu who has a been at Sanda for over 30 years who is from and trained in China goes by his first name and my Wing Chun Sifu who has been at Wing Chun for over 20 years and is a student of Ip Ching goes by his first name or Sifu, Hell man Chen Zhenglei goes by Chen Sifu.

Sijo

 

[KamonGuy2]

I agree with most of the posts here. It is nice to keep traditional names (a lot of other styles such as karate do it, and it reinforces discipline)

The genius of words such as Sifu is that they mean nothing more than a fatherly figure or teacher. Whereas I know of some styles, the teacher is actually called something like 'great one' in the native language. That to me seems a bit forced

It also helps distinguish who a person is talking to in class. My masters first name is Kevin and therefore talking to another student about 'Kevin' would make it hard to identify who I was actualy referring to!

In Kamon, the instructors used to be called Sihing and then Kevin Chan would be called Sifu. I like that system as it set Kevin chan apart from the other instructors

At the end of the day, every system is different and will have different interpretations of structure within an organisation

Some schools have belts and sashes whilst others dont bother with that

 

[Xinglu]

In Kamon, the instructors used to be called Sihing and then Kevin Chan would be called Sifu. I like that system as it set Kevin chan apart from the other instructors

Some schools have belts and sashes whilst others dont bother with that

This is how we do it in Xingyiquan. You are either have Shifu's blessing to teach, or you do not. If you are still training with him, at best you are shixiong (sihing), and have responsibilities of helping out with the instruction of jr students or filling in if he needs to be absent for a class. However, we regard anyone with more experiance then us as our shixiong, so it can be confusing to an outsider. Once you jump in it is easy to get used to though.

If a Shixiong moves away, often they have his blessing to teach, and they become Shifu to their own school. For instance we had a guy who had trained for 17 years with my Shifu before his job took him upstate. Now he has his own school and we go there with our shifu every couple of years to train with them. In most arts he would have been a "shifu" long before he actually was. But, there can only be one shifu per-school and so long as there is good training, no one really cares about titles.

 

[mook jong man]

I don't care what they call me.
Just don't call me late for dinner.

 

[geezer]

In our NVTO organization, a Sifu is a fully qualified instructor (tested to at least 2nd degree technically) who must also have experience teaching under the tutelage of his own sifu until he has overseen the advancement of at least two students all the way up to first degree level. Then he/she may be fully authorized to open their own school as a Sifu. It seems like a very long process. But you can keep advancing in skill without choosing to become a sifu on your own. At least this method does help insure that those with the title of sifu have proven themselves as teachers as well as fighters. There is a big difference. I'm currently teaching again as a sifu, primarily to help my si-Juk, or kung fu nephew, gain this teaching experience so he may become a sifu. But strictly in terms of fighting skill, he has already passed me!

...But then again, I dropped out for about 16 years...and he is bigger, stronger and 20 years younger than I am. Give me a few more years to get it back together. Maybe when I'm 60 I'll kick his butt again! Hey I'm serious. Never give up, never say die!

Anyway, regarding titles, someone can call you Sifu, Sensei, Sobum, Guro, even Grandmaster, or just by your first name. Whatever words come out, you can tell if there's respect or not.

 

[blindsage]

I was looking up my old Sifu in Wing Chun and found he now calls himself a "Sijo". It is likely because he now has a number of instructors under him and there have been other schools formed with his specific type of
Wing Chun he calls "Tsun Jo Wing Chun Kung Fu" I tried to email him regarding the new title, but the email was bounced back to me as undeliverable.

That's probably because your old teacher was orginally a student of (and teacher under) James DeMiles, who founded his own style Wing Chun Do, and uses the title of Sijo (he was an early student of Bruce Lee, but did not learn traditional Wing Chun). When your teacher decided to branch away from James DeMiles and do his own thing, he founded his own style, Tsun Jo Wing Chun, and took the title of Sijo.

 

[Joab]

That's probably because your old teacher was orginally a student of (and teacher under) James DeMiles, who founded his own style Wing Chun Do, and uses the title of Sijo (he was an early student of Bruce Lee, but did not learn traditional Wing Chun). When your teacher decided to branch away from James DeMiles and do his own thing, he founded his own style, Tsun Jo Wing Chun, and took the title of Sijo.

And it seems to me he has every right to do that since it is his own style of Wing Chun and he has instructors under him in his own style. The man is truly an amazingly gifted practitioner of Wing Chun and a great guy as well and an excellent teacher. I got a lot out of his teaching, I wish I still lived in Seattle so I could train in his system.

 

[blindsage]

I was challenging your instructor. I was giving you the contextual information you could understand the answer to your question better.

 

[Xinglu]

I wasn't challenging your instructor. I was giving you the contextual information you could understand the answer to your question better.

Fixed that for you, didn't want this to heat up!

 

[blindsage]

Whoops! Thanks.