What would a form look like if it taught WT sparring techniques?

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This post is mostly a thought experiment.

Thought that crossed my mind based on a post in the main forum. Taekwondo is "the kicking art" according to many. Honestly, aside from Wushu and other demonstration-based arts, I think Capoeira is the only other art that emphasizes kicks as much as Taekwondo. This becomes more true in WT-sparring, where kicking is about the only way to score points.

And yet the forms, whether Taegeuk or Palgwe, rarely use kicks. While we don't train the "official" Palgwe forms at my school, I've seen them online, as well as the Taegeuks, and it appears they all have the same things in common: 1. front kicks are littered throughout the forms, and 2. there's barely any use of any kick besides a front kick. I added up the kicks in the other thread, and the forms we do at my school up through black belt there's 44 front kicks, a handful of side kicks, a few crescent kicks, and one back kick.

Compare that with Taekwondo sparring, where you will typically use front pushing kick (instead of snap kicks), front-leg side kicks (instead of the rear-leg ones typical in forms), roundhouse kicks, back kicks, crescent kicks, hook kicks, and spinning hook/spinning roundhouse kicks as your staple techniques.

Then there's the footwork. While the Taekwondo forms (especially the palgwes, but also the later Taegeuks, to my knowledge) emphasize the type of one-step footwork you'd see in one-step punch drills, Taekwondo sparring involves a bouncing rhythm, slides, jumps, drags, switches, double kicks, and repeating kicks.

Which leads me to wonder...what would a stylized form designed to teach WT sparring concepts look like? What would be similar to the Palgwe and/or Taegeuk forms? What would be different?

Obviously I would want to use a lot more kicks. Do you bounce, or do you ground the form? What kind of footwork do you include? Do you speed up the pace of the form, or keep it slow and in line with other TKD forms? Or do you simple take some of the ideas in the other forms and add in roundhouse kicks and hook kicks in between motions?

How would you go about making a form designed to teach WT concepts? Or is the idea entirely silly and you'll stick to drills and sparring?
 

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I think it would look something like the new Himchari form with the footwork elements, minus the tricking type sections.

If you put a form together I'd love to see it. Taeguk and Palgwe forms now only encompass so little of what modern tkd has developed
 
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I think it would look something like the new Himchari form with the footwork elements, minus the tricking type sections.

If you put a form together I'd love to see it. Taeguk and Palgwe forms now only encompass so little of what modern tkd has developed

Some of those elements, yeah.

The issue I have with that type of form is that it seems to be all over the place. Like if you were to take a song where the verse alternates between Hip Hop and Country, and the Chorus goes back and forth between Metal and Pop. Those forms show some traditional punching styles, some demonstration-type tricking kicks, and some sparring tactics. It's all over the place! And it all just looks kind of random to me. I guess I understand it for the sake of competition (show a little bit of everything TKD can bring) but it doesn't really make sense to me.

As to the Taegeuks/Palgwes...don't get me wrong. I like those forms. In fact, if I had a choice of focusing on the style of combat in the forms (especially Palgwe) and going for deeper stances and strong hand strikes with a few kicks thrown in, vs. going for the advanced kicking that TKD does, I'd go for the forms and that style of fighting. I like learning both, and I really like the advanced kicks. This is why this was a thought exercise on how to build an entire form around kicks.
 
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Something in a ladder drill format?


Interesting. There's a couple uses for the ladder I hadn't seen before. I've used it in a running stance, but never hopping in a chamber, and never for stance footwork.

I hadn't thought of using a prop in the form, but it kind of works with how Wing Chun uses the wooden dummy. (Not a perfect analogy, but its there).

This brings up a question though: the format here has 5-10 passes through each drill (depending on if the drill uses 1 or 2 squares in the ladder). Maybe 10-20 if you go up and down the ladder. So how many times should a certain drill be repeated in the form? Is it one time just to include it (like an encyclopedia)? Is it a couple of times to reinforce the idea and maybe show some variants? Or is it a dozen times to make sure you drill the concept or technique when you do the form?
 

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Love it, very cool thought experiment!

I would say that the principles of the forms would be designed around teaching speed, agility, footwork, lightness, explosiveness, as per WT-sparring. And in fact may resemble more shadowsparring I'd say! Obviously more kicks, but the ability to change direction quickly and alter kick intention could play a part...

That style of sparring seems to emphasise speed and explosiveness etc, so it would seem strange to have more rooted stances/movements within it, although I'd be so game to see an attempt!

It may not necessarily have to be bouncy, but if the demonstration of launching forward aggressively and ability to link kicks were in there, it would be enough to teach those specific body mechanics (without a target though of course).
 
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Love it, very cool thought experiment!

I would say that the principles of the forms would be designed around teaching speed, agility, footwork, lightness, explosiveness, as per WT-sparring. And in fact may resemble more shadowsparring I'd say! Obviously more kicks, but the ability to change direction quickly and alter kick intention could play a part...

That style of sparring seems to emphasise speed and explosiveness etc, so it would seem strange to have more rooted stances/movements within it, although I'd be so game to see an attempt!

It may not necessarily have to be bouncy, but if the demonstration of launching forward aggressively and ability to link kicks were in there, it would be enough to teach those specific body mechanics (without a target though of course).

So explosive movements, but with pauses between each in a shallow, rooted stance. That makes sense.

A deeper stance could still be used. If you can make the explosive kicks from a deep stance, you can do it from a shallow stance, and the deep stances help a bit with strength and flexibility. But at the same time I can see how practicing for those can be a hindrance, when you should practice the sparring stance.
 

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So explosive movements, but with pauses between each in a shallow, rooted stance. That makes sense.

A deeper stance could still be used. If you can make the explosive kicks from a deep stance, you can do it from a shallow stance, and the deep stances help a bit with strength and flexibility. But at the same time I can see how practicing for those can be a hindrance, when you should practice the sparring stance.

Yeah absolutely, then again alot of top karate competitors have quite a deep stance, but are still incredibly quick and explosive. It would be a good way to train strength and that driving forward force. If you can explode forward in deep forward leaning stance you'll be a gun in a shorter higher stance!

Perhaps the form could even have a particular sequence in the deeper more rooted stance, then straight after it's then repeated, but in a lighter, more free and agile version or format. I'm tempted to do a quick vid of that idea right now but it's almost midnight and am off to bed haha (or like in some styles they'll have traditional kata and kumite/sparring kata)
 

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This post is mostly a thought experiment.

Thought that crossed my mind based on a post in the main forum. Taekwondo is "the kicking art" according to many. Honestly, aside from Wushu and other demonstration-based arts, I think Capoeira is the only other art that emphasizes kicks as much as Taekwondo. This becomes more true in WT-sparring, where kicking is about the only way to score points.

And yet the forms, whether Taegeuk or Palgwe, rarely use kicks. While we don't train the "official" Palgwe forms at my school, I've seen them online, as well as the Taegeuks, and it appears they all have the same things in common: 1. front kicks are littered throughout the forms, and 2. there's barely any use of any kick besides a front kick. I added up the kicks in the other thread, and the forms we do at my school up through black belt there's 44 front kicks, a handful of side kicks, a few crescent kicks, and one back kick.

Compare that with Taekwondo sparring, where you will typically use front pushing kick (instead of snap kicks), front-leg side kicks (instead of the rear-leg ones typical in forms), roundhouse kicks, back kicks, crescent kicks, hook kicks, and spinning hook/spinning roundhouse kicks as your staple techniques.

Then there's the footwork. While the Taekwondo forms (especially the palgwes, but also the later Taegeuks, to my knowledge) emphasize the type of one-step footwork you'd see in one-step punch drills, Taekwondo sparring involves a bouncing rhythm, slides, jumps, drags, switches, double kicks, and repeating kicks.

Which leads me to wonder...what would a stylized form designed to teach WT sparring concepts look like? What would be similar to the Palgwe and/or Taegeuk forms? What would be different?

Obviously I would want to use a lot more kicks. Do you bounce, or do you ground the form? What kind of footwork do you include? Do you speed up the pace of the form, or keep it slow and in line with other TKD forms? Or do you simple take some of the ideas in the other forms and add in roundhouse kicks and hook kicks in between motions?

How would you go about making a form designed to teach WT concepts? Or is the idea entirely silly and you'll stick to drills and sparring?
For schools where kicking - especially the range of kicking you list here - is the focus, the forms should change. I know that's not going to happen, because the forms are controlled by the larger organization. I'm speaking from a purely practical perspective. There's little sense in having forms that cover techniques not actually being taught for use (in whatever the context focus is), except as the occasional additional challenge and such.

So, what would a WT form look like if sparring-focused? It should contain the most useful techniques for sparring and some useful transitions (either useful for sparring, or for body development). It might also include some special challenges for future development, but the majority of the contents should be what works - and is frequently used - in sparring. For arts focused on defensive use or sport, those should also be the primary techniques taught in classes.

My general rule is that a form should contain only movements with a purpose. The primary purpose should be to support what's being taught in class. Anything that doesn't really do that is wasted time and effort. That's not to say some esoteric techniques can't be in there, but they should have a purpose for being there. And the teaching of the class should drive what's in the form, never the other way around, unless the form is the entire purpose (like training it for performance, like in modern wushu).
 

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Interesting. There's a couple uses for the ladder I hadn't seen before. I've used it in a running stance, but never hopping in a chamber, and never for stance footwork.

I hadn't thought of using a prop in the form, but it kind of works with how Wing Chun uses the wooden dummy. (Not a perfect analogy, but its there).

This brings up a question though: the format here has 5-10 passes through each drill (depending on if the drill uses 1 or 2 squares in the ladder). Maybe 10-20 if you go up and down the ladder. So how many times should a certain drill be repeated in the form? Is it one time just to include it (like an encyclopedia)? Is it a couple of times to reinforce the idea and maybe show some variants? Or is it a dozen times to make sure you drill the concept or technique when you do the form?
I think that depends what you want the form to do. I tend to focus on the transitions in the form, because otherwise, I might as well stay on basic drills. So, I have multiple appearances of the same kick in one kata, because each requires a different transition I want to work on. Some of those transitions are practical (for sparring/defensive use) and some are just to work on balance and mobility.
 

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So explosive movements, but with pauses between each in a shallow, rooted stance. That makes sense.

A deeper stance could still be used. If you can make the explosive kicks from a deep stance, you can do it from a shallow stance, and the deep stances help a bit with strength and flexibility. But at the same time I can see how practicing for those can be a hindrance, when you should practice the sparring stance.
Transitions into, out of, and between those stances within the form would be of benefit. A deep stance is less of a hindrance if transitions out of it (into either kicks or other stances) are well-developed.
 
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So I didn't make the form. I'm kind of like the guy from that old story, who wanted to write a book but spent his lifetime trying to figure out the perfect opening line and never wrote anything. I'm still trying to formulate how I would do it.

What I did do yesterday, when I was leading the black belt class at the start, is take some ideas I had regarding footwork and turn them into drills. Where I took the same basic idea of a roundhouse kick, and different ways to move forward, backward, and sideways while throwing the kick.

For example, starting with the right leg back, here were 4 drills we did in succession:
  1. Right leg step out to the right, left leg roundhouse kick
  2. Right leg step out to the right, left knee up, and right leg jumping roundhouse kick
  3. Right leg step out to the right, stutter step with the left and right leg, and left leg jumping roundhouse kick
  4. Right leg step out to the right, turning step with the left leg, and left leg tornado kick
So I was able to create a progression from something simple to something more complex. Another thing I would do is with forward and backward movement, work on the same movement forward and backward. For example:

  • Both feet slide forward, then roundhouse kick. Next: both feet slide backward, then roundhouse kick.
  • Rear knee drive through in a forward hop and roundhouse kick. Next: rear knee drive through in a backward hop and roundhouse kick.
These are some kinds of things I was thinking of if I were to do a form, mainly based on what @gpseymour said in Post #10: multiple appearances of the kick, but in different transitions. While in the form I wouldn't necessarily want to repeat drills verbatim on left and right sides, I would want to repeat most of the motions on both sides. For example, with the right leg back, have roundhouse kick + back kick. With the left leg back, do a roundhouse + back kick + switch-feet-back-kick. That way the form doesn't feel repetitive, it builds on itself, and it still covers both sides.
 

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So I didn't make the form. I'm kind of like the guy from that old story, who wanted to write a book but spent his lifetime trying to figure out the perfect opening line and never wrote anything. I'm still trying to formulate how I would do it.

What I did do yesterday, when I was leading the black belt class at the start, is take some ideas I had regarding footwork and turn them into drills. Where I took the same basic idea of a roundhouse kick, and different ways to move forward, backward, and sideways while throwing the kick.

For example, starting with the right leg back, here were 4 drills we did in succession:
  1. Right leg step out to the right, left leg roundhouse kick
  2. Right leg step out to the right, left knee up, and right leg jumping roundhouse kick
  3. Right leg step out to the right, stutter step with the left and right leg, and left leg jumping roundhouse kick
  4. Right leg step out to the right, turning step with the left leg, and left leg tornado kick
Nice progression. How did it go, for the folks you were leading?

So I was able to create a progression from something simple to something more complex. Another thing I would do is with forward and backward movement, work on the same movement forward and backward. For example:

  • Both feet slide forward, then roundhouse kick. Next: both feet slide backward, then roundhouse kick.
  • Rear knee drive through in a forward hop and roundhouse kick. Next: rear knee drive through in a backward hop and roundhouse kick.
These are some kinds of things I was thinking of if I were to do a form, mainly based on what @gpseymour said in Post #10: multiple appearances of the kick, but in different transitions. While in the form I wouldn't necessarily want to repeat drills verbatim on left and right sides, I would want to repeat most of the motions on both sides. For example, with the right leg back, have roundhouse kick + back kick. With the left leg back, do a roundhouse + back kick + switch-feet-back-kick. That way the form doesn't feel repetitive, it builds on itself, and it still covers both sides.
Another thought when considering developing forms: is it necessary for the form to cover both sides? I've decided it is not, for my forms. I've (mostly) chosen dominant-side actions to develop those more, since really the form isn't the primary path to developing any of the skills. And the form can be repeated with a start from the other side to even things out, if desired. So, if you want to simplify a form (to make it easier to learn quickly), you can create one that either only focuses on one side, or more or less alternates between sides using logical transitions. In the former case, you'd almost have to practice the form from both sides. In the latter case, it might be acceptable to practice the form most of the time from one starting side, and only occasionally visit it from the opposite start.

It all depends how you want to use the form.
 
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Nice progression. How did it go, for the folks you were leading?


Another thought when considering developing forms: is it necessary for the form to cover both sides? I've decided it is not, for my forms. I've (mostly) chosen dominant-side actions to develop those more, since really the form isn't the primary path to developing any of the skills. And the form can be repeated with a start from the other side to even things out, if desired. So, if you want to simplify a form (to make it easier to learn quickly), you can create one that either only focuses on one side, or more or less alternates between sides using logical transitions. In the former case, you'd almost have to practice the form from both sides. In the latter case, it might be acceptable to practice the form most of the time from one starting side, and only occasionally visit it from the opposite start.

It all depends how you want to use the form.

Drills 1 and 2 seemed challenging, but they got through it. Drill 3 confused them. Ironically more people got Drill 4.

The reason I'd use both sides for a lot of it is because TKD sparring is both sides.
 
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I'd put this out of my mind for a little while because things have been hectic lately, but it's popped back into my head again. I was thinking about how I would do the steps and kicks.

For example, if I were to do this like in sparring, a defensive roundhouse kick might feature a leap/slide back with a pop jumping roundhouse kick. This would be the "practical" version of the form.

Or there would be a more stylized version, which would keep similar pace to the old Taekwondo style. In this version, I might step back with one leg, and then chamber the other leg and roundhouse kick.

Both options would feature a movement backwards, and a roundhouse kick with the leg that started as the rear leg. If you capture a few frames (as you would in a printed version of the techniques) they might look almost the same.

---

The other thing I've been thinking about is how you would do a curriculum with this idea. Let's say that instead of just looking at one form, we look at doing five forms. There's a few ways I can see doing this:
  • Each form dedicated to a different kick, i.e. roundhouse kick, back kick, hook kick, axe kick, and spinning kicks.
  • Each form dedicated to a style of fighting, i.e. aggressive, defensive, feints, clinching, and punching.
  • Each form dedicated to a type of movement, i.e. sideways movements, straight movements, switches, turns
  • Each form dedicated to a range of movement, i.e. clinch, headshot range, kicking range, skipping range, long range.
Then of course I can do these across a couple different styles. So I could have something like:
  1. A form which primarily uses roundhouse kicks, side kicks/teeps, back kicks, and feints with sideways and backward movements to cover a defensive style or how to keep your opponent at range
  2. A form which primarily uses spinning kicks, repeating kicks, and foot switches to give balance and control.
  3. A form which uses a combination of clinching techniques, punches, and head kicks to cover a close-range aggressive style, or the tools against someone with that kind of style
  4. A form focused on jumping kicks and different ways you can jump when doing kicks. (The focus would be on sliding kicks, drag kicks, pop kicks, and bicycle kicks, not on fancy jumping kicks like 540s). To some degree, this would help reinforce the defensiveness of the first form, but would also teach aggressive techniques to close distance.
  5. A form which focuses more on hand and head motions to have an effective guard while kicking.
Actually...I kind of like that.
 

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It's like shadow boxing.

 

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I'm not seeing the connection.

A form consisting of sparring techniques and .....

Shadowboxing - which only consists of sparring techniques.

You don't see a connection?
 
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A form consisting of sparring techniques and .....

Shadowboxing - which only consists of sparring techniques.

You don't see a connection?

Kind of. But (forgive my ignorance of boxing) I didn't think shadow boxing was a prescribed set of movements like a kata. It also doesn't fit into the secondary goal I had of trying to make it at least resemble a Taekwondo form.
 

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I think it would look something like the new Himchari form with the footwork elements, minus the tricking type sections.

If you put a form together I'd love to see it. Taeguk and Palgwe forms now only encompass so little of what modern tkd has developed
I just watched a video of the form. Beautiful and impressive. Definitely a high level form. I think it would be a great addition to most TKD curriculum. A great evolution to modern practice. I am speaking from an old guys perspective, but I think only about 25% BB's could pull it off even moderately. I suppose the drills we do should make it easier though.
 

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