What was Wing Chun designed for?

[DanT]

When you start adding stuff to a style you lose it's essence. If you do ballet do ballet, don't start doing jazz. If you play classical music, don't go to a classical music symphony and start playing a hip hop beat. It's disgraceful.

 

[Nobody Important]

Because there is no diffeciency. The style is complete, it works on its own, I don't need to do a Shaolin movement to make up for my shity wing chun, because my wing chun is excellent, and my Shaolin is excellent. I don't have any gaps to be filled. I train the system, I believe in the system. They work, I don't need to gap fill because I have trained diligently.
Chi Sao is not "pummelling", if that's how you do it then great, but you're not doing it for the same purpose that I am then.

So you're able to effectively grapple with only WC? Or participate in a TKD only tournament and win using WC kicking methods? If not there are deficiencies whether you agree or not. Context here is important. When it comes to a no rules method of fighting, no one method addresses all ranges and methods of defense equally or proficiently. The reason MMA has lept to the front of the fight scene is because the entire premise is acknowledging weak areas, filling the gaps that are lacking to address the deficiency. MMA is constantly tested and refined to address deficiencies, can WC claim the same? WC hasn't proven that it contains adequate methods to deal with all ranges and methods, feel free to believe otherwise. It may work in the context for what it was designed for, but it does not address them all, therefore "Gap Filling" or "Cross Training" are necessary for growth. No art evolves by remaining stagnant, no fighter evolves (even within the confines of a specific sport) by adhering to dogmatic belief that what they already possess is all inclusive & nothing more is necessary.

 

[drop bear]

Assuming you want to keep WC/VT as your striking core, some things would definitely mix in better than others. Clinchwork and takedowns allowing a seamless transition to grappling should work in very well. By contrast, a very different striking art with a different structure and method of power generation would be more problematic.

Chi sau and pummeling don't look hugely different. You would effectively just be hitting different targets.

 

[drop bear]

When you start adding stuff to a style you lose it's essence. If you do ballet do ballet, don't start doing jazz. If you play classical music, don't go to a classical music symphony and start playing a hip hop beat. It's disgraceful.

So you don't like fusion then?

Go watch crossroads.

 

[DanT]

So you're able to effectively grapple with only WC? Or participate in a TKD only tournament and win using WC kicking methods? If not there are deficiencies whether you agree or not. Context here is important. When it comes to a no rules method of fighting, no one method addresses all ranges and methods of defense equally or proficiently. The reason MMA has lept to the front of the fight scene is because the entire premise is acknowledging weak areas, filling the gaps that are lacking to address the deficiency. MMA is constantly tested and refined to address deficiencies, can WC claim the same? WC hasn't proven that it contains adequate methods to deal with all ranges and methods, feel free to believe otherwise. It may work in the context for what it was designed for, but it does not address them all, therefore "Gap Filling" or "Cross Training" are necessary for growth. No art evolves by remaining stagnant, no fighter evolves (even within the confines of a specific sport) by adhering to dogmatic belief that what they already possess is all inclusive & nothing more is necessary.

Wing Chun works excellent for what it was designed for. Obviously grappling arts work well in grappling tournaments and TKD works well in TKD tournaments. I'm not training for a TKD tournament, I'm training for street survival, and for that Wing Chun is a complete system. I don't have any reason to mix. If I want to compete in a BJJ tournament I'll use BJJ. If I want go fight in a TKD tournament I'll use TKD.

 

[DanT]

So you don't like fusion then?

Go watch crossroads.

Not when it comes to true Traditional Gong Fu no, because the systems are complete, the problem is that people are lazy and don't dedicate themselves to them and go looking elsewhere for answers.

 

[drop bear]

Not when it comes to true Traditional Gong Fu no, because the systems are complete, the problem is that people are lazy and don't dedicate themselves to them and go looking elsewhere for answers.

If you think your system is complete then you don't understand your system.

 

[DanT]

If you think your system is complete then you don't understand your system.

Actually I do understand it. It's complete because it provides everything I need, not everything I could have. I will agree with you that some systems and styles do compliment Wing Chun well, such as BJJ, or a Longfist style. That's not to say that wing chun needs to be mixed, you keep the training separate. You perfect the skill and the style and then you learn another one, that's my philosophy. It's an art, I learn it, I become excellent in it, and then I start learning another one, and so on. I become excellent at jazz, then excellent at classical, then excellent at hip hop. Then when I play music, I play how I want to play.

 

[Nobody Important]

I'm training for street survival, and for that Wing Chun is a complete system.

IMO not even close to being complete, there are so many things that can happen from rolling around on the ground, to weapons, to group attack. Belief that any one system, let alone Wing Chun, has all the answers to adequately deal with all ranges and methods of attack is foolish. In a sporting competition you stand a much better chance of making the opponent fight to your strengths than you do in a street altercation. Different environment, different attitude and different consequences. Augmenting a system like Wing Chun with methods like grappling or boxing doesn't mean that it is inferior, it means that it doesn't specialize in those methods or ranges, and by complimenting the art with such methods, allows you to be better equipped to use it more effectively.

Now I'm not saying you have to mix the method. If you want to keep it as is, OK with me, I don't have a problem with you keeping it traditional. Just don't go around making unsubstantiated claims that it is an all inclusive method when it isn't.

 

[anerlich]

Gap-filling? Or just good integration of different skills sets?

I see what you are getting at, Keith, but in that particular case the IMO concepts behind that combination exist in various dummy sets. There's other stuff on that DVD which is a bit more like incorporating standing grappling moves into chi sao. But the essence is probably being able to move from wing chun structures into grappling controls. Opinions vary amongst my Wing Chun / Jiu Jitsu crosstraining friends and acquaintances about how useful such drills are.

 

[anerlich]

I don't need to add that to Chi Sao because it's not the purpose of my Chi Sao. My Chi Sao is to develop sensitivity and reaction, as well as to practice pining and trapping. If I do a double leg I'm not working on those things. If I want to work on a double leg, then I'll do it in a platform that allows for that.

Chi sao is a platform to develop specific skills and attributes. I personally see it as more to develop correct structure and positioning than as a sensitivity drill. If you're structure is on point, sensitivity matters less, and if your structure is poor, sensitivity won't save you. Wrestling IMO is a way better drill for overall sensitivity.

Shooting a double leg from a poon sao position makes no sense, you don't want be engaged like that to set it up in the first place.

That said, a favourite d*ck move of mine when pressure testing in freestyle chi sao is to suddenly disengage, level change and hit them with a low ankle shoot. Your sprawl better be on point ... not the case for many WC guys.

 

[anerlich]

Not when it comes to true Traditional Gong Fu no, because the systems are complete, the problem is that people are lazy and don't dedicate themselves to them and go looking elsewhere for answers.

I know what you mean, but there is also merit in not putting all your eggs in one basket. There might be good stuff over there you're missing out on.

I started Kung Fu doing a fusion style. My instructor was a goju ryu karate nidan and JJJ black belt who decided to switch to Chinese arts. To get in as much training as possible back in the mid 1960s he trained with a number of instructors of different styles at the same time. Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut, and Northern Sil Lum. He taught a system which included elements of all three. He was a man who didn't look for trouble, but enjoyed finding it, and he had more than a few chances to pressure test his system. He was a small guy, not particularly imposing and had regular challengers in the early days of his kwoon, though they stopped ocming once word got around that he was not an easy mark. His chi sao was as good as any I've experienced. I felt my time with him was very well spent and only stopped training with him because I had to move cities.

Style purity or completeness arguments tend to leave me unimpressed as a result.

I train with my current WC instructor because I though he was the best TCMA guy in my city at the time. Still do. He also cross trains, with a black belt in Kyokushin karate and a brown belt in BJJ.

I train WC and BJJ now. I don't try to mix them or use one to fill perceived holes in the other. But I certainly don't think myself lazy for pursuing two arts at once. I enjoy and value them both.

 

[LFJ]

I'm a little confused though. While this channel didn't have much but light sparring/drilling that channel did.

The question was whether or not VT practitioners are doing any sparring. Was it not?

Here is a glimpse of geared up sparring from this channel.

If you doubt any hard sparring is taking place there, I'm sure he's wondering what you'd consider "hard".
He's had to have surgery on his chin for the amount of hits he has taken there.
Knife sparring has also drawn blood despite heavy protection.

They no doubt do some serious training.

Lots of wb and jui jitsu mixed in with what the guys on that channel are doing. Looks good but there is definitely stand up cross training (gap filling?)happening here.

There is no WB or gap-filling for missing striking elements there.

There is JJ because their instructor intends to have them compete in the future.
So, that is necessary to cross-train to complement the standup striking.

 

[LFJ]

not much there to show a WSLVT long range game, or how it would be applied in free-sparring against a boxer or anyone else.

Nor did I say there was. The question was whether or not WSLVT practitioners are sparring at all.

So, there you go. The answer is yes.

That Channel (Sean Wood's VT Lille group) showed a lot more. The elbow-low punching, the aggressive advancing steps, the forward pressure were all straight-up VT with a strong WSL flavor, but there was so much else worked in too ...some boxing hands (the "kung-fu fighting" clip at 1:13), use of what we call the "comb your hair" cover against hooks, as well as seamless transitions from punching to clinch-work, throws, ground fighting and submissions. Saw the same thing happening in a lot of the other videos, such as "VT Lille 15".

None of that is Western Boxing. The striking is standard VT.

Although the high cover is not typical of core VT tactics, more a BJ tactic, it works well against other styles, and use is therefore made of it.

Grappling is a complement to the striking, not gap-filling for something that should be a part of striking but is missing, like strategy and tactics for different striking ranges that are a given in fist fights.

LFJ's "WSLVT is a complete system and needs nothing else" position.

As a striking method, that is true. It doesn't need help to function in standup striking at any range.

WB and VT are a bit like water and oil. If you try to use WB strategy or tactics, you must abandon VT strategy and tactics, and vice versa.

Doing so will more than likely render VT ineffective, because it's designed to work with a particular strategy and tactic. Switching up to a contradictory strategy and tactic will just muddle the efforts.

OK then, if a person were willing to travel 1,000, heck maybe even 2,000 miles ...to see good WSLVT who would you recommend visiting in the USA, where so many of us live? Somebody other than Kevin Gledhill, please!

I don't know anyone in the U.S. not affiliated with KG. I think he gets a bum rap, though, due to respectfully allowing someone their turn to show their approach, and then having that used against him. But, whether you think he's personally good at it or not (despite having experience to know that), he understands the system and can explain and teach it well.

 

[KPM]

Wing Chun works excellent for what it was designed for.

And what was it designed for?

 

[KPM]

some systems and styles do compliment Wing Chun well, such as BJJ, or a Longfist style. That's not to say that wing chun needs to be mixed, you keep the training separate. You perfect the skill and the style and then you learn another one, that's my philosophy. It's an art, I learn it, I become excellent in it, and then I start learning another one, and so on. I become excellent at jazz, then excellent at classical, then excellent at hip hop. Then when I play music, I play how I want to play.

While I agree with you in spirit, I disagree with how you get there. Sure, you learn two different arts separately. But then you also have to train them together and learn how to best move freely from one to the other. You need to learn where they overlap so you have a seamless transition when you "want to play." Otherwise you may find yourself hesitating or pausing when you aren't sure which method to use.

 

[KPM]

Here is a glimpse of geared up sparring from this channel.

---Again, Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun guy. Not against a non-Wing Chun guy, and not really a "free-fighting" context. To echo your question about TWC and that clip of William Cheung light sparring.....why is it I always see you saying your VT works so well against anyone, yet all the clips only show it working against another Wing Chun guy holding his hands nicely right on the centerline, standing nice and upright, so that the VT guy can charge forward at an angle and blast away? Why does the opponent never simply take a step back and pivot out of the way? Why does the opponent never duck and throw a hard and low body shot? Why does the opponent never slip to the side while throwing a hard round kick to the thigh? Why does the opponent always just stand right in front of the VT guy and let him come....never dancing away with good footwork like a boxer would?


He's had to have surgery on his chin for the amount of hits he has taken there.
Knife sparring has also drawn blood despite heavy protection.

They no doubt do some serious training.

----Bullshido styles can do some "serious training." Doesn't mean its effective or good training. Seeing the video that lead to that picture would mean much more!


There is no WB or gap-filling for missing striking elements there.

---I saw only one punch in that clip. The VT straight punch. For a dedicated striking art it seems odd that there is only one punch. You have others you say? Odd that they seldom if ever show up in all the numerous training clips. Are they a secret as well?


So, that is necessary to cross-train to complement the standup striking.

---That doesn't explain the Boxing high cover. Shouldn't a dedicated standup striking art be able to handle any strike coming at it with its own defensive methods???

 

[LFJ]

---Again, Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun guy. Not against a non-Wing Chun guy, and not really a "free-fighting" context.

Duh. The question it answers is simply whether or not VT guys are sparring. The answer is yes.

why is it I always see you saying your VT works so well against anyone, yet all the clips only show it working against another Wing Chun guy holding his hands nicely right on the centerline, standing nice and upright, so that the VT guy can charge forward at an angle and blast away?

That is a quite dishonest troll comment, since you have just seen VT vs MMA sparring.

Why does the opponent never simply take a step back and pivot out of the way? Why does the opponent never duck and throw a hard and low body shot? Why does the opponent never slip to the side while throwing a hard round kick to the thigh? Why does the opponent always just stand right in front of the VT guy and let him come....never dancing away with good footwork like a boxer would?

...Because they are VT fighters. Duh.

The MMA opponents did all of the above.

----Bullshido styles can do some "serious training." Doesn't mean its effective or good training. Seeing the video that lead to that picture would mean much more!

Your uninformed opinion has nothing to do with the reality or efficacy of what is being trained without you present.

---I saw only one punch in that clip. The VT straight punch. For a dedicated striking art it seems odd that there is only one punch. You have others you say? Odd that they seldom if ever show up in all the numerous training clips. Are they a secret as well?

What others? Straight punches can have two different energies.
Seen as just a simple straight punch to the uninformed.

VT uses a few simple tools. Doesn't need a giant bag of tricks. So what?

---That doesn't explain the Boxing high cover. Shouldn't a dedicated standup striking art be able to handle any strike coming at it with its own defensive methods???

Not a boxing cover. It's a BJ tactic that works well against other styles.

 

[KPM]

WB and VT are a bit like water and oil. If you try to use WB strategy or tactics, you must abandon VT strategy and tactics, and vice versa.

---Well here I may have to actually agree with you! If your main VT strategy or tactic is to wedge in on the 45 degree angle and then charge into the opponent with a barrage of chain punches (as we see on so many WSLVT training clips, including the one you just posted), then yeah....that wouldn't mix very well with good Boxing. But that isn't the main strategy in the various versions of Wing Chun I have learned. And it has always seemed rather "one-dimensional" to me, as I've said before.


I don't know anyone in the U.S. not affiliated with KG. I think he gets a bum rap, though, due to respectfully allowing someone their turn to show their approach, and then having that used against him. But, whether you think he's personally good at it or not (despite having experience to know that), he understands the system and can explain and teach it well.

---Well here I may have to actually agree with you again! Geezer is probably spitting his coffee through his nose by now! KG came across as a real XXXX on the other forum, even worse than you do here on this forum! He gave HIMSELF a "bum rap" for that reason. But I would certainly be willing to cut him some slack over that exchange with Shaun. What that exchange did show was that he needed to tone down his trash-talking of everyone else's Wing Chun....again like you need to do here in this forum (and also probably why you would NEVER post a clip of yourself doing any VT). But I am sure that one exchange was not a good measure of his skills or how well he knows WSLVT. So given a chance, I would gladly do some training with him. But, given his known past attitude and behavior am I going to go out of my way to seek him out and risk wasting my time? Likely not, and I'm sure anyone that knows him from the other forum would say the same. In contrast, if I was ever in France I would definitely consider making an effort to visit Sean in Lille.

 

[KPM]

That is a quite dishonest troll comment, since you have just seen VT vs MMA sparring.

----No, now you are being dishonest. Because if it is Sean's clip you are referring to, you admitted that they were mixing in other things with VT because they were training for MMA competition. So it wasn't just VT vs. MMA.




The MMA opponents did all of the above.

---Not in Kurth's clip that you just posted. That seems to be the only sparring clip you can find other than Sean's. And Sean's guys weren't doing pure VT, as you yourself pointed out.


What others? Straight punches can have two different energies.
Seen as just a simple straight punch to the uninformed.

---Ok. So you only have one punch with two different energies. Seems a bit strange for such an effective striking art.



Not a boxing cover. It's a BJ tactic that works well against other styles.

---And just where the heck do you think BJJ got it from????!!!!!