What type of sword to use for training

[Mcura]

That's fascinating. I'm accustomed to a certain vibration in European style swords, wether they're steel or aluminum (aircraft aluminum, to be specific). An arming/knightly sword, when you smack the pommel, will produce a vibration that travels up the blade. There will be two spots that the wave terminates. One is about 3 inches (or so) below the very tip of the blade, and the other (ideally) is in the grip. That "sweet spot" near the tip is the place where the cut should land, and a blow struck there transfers no (or very little) vibration to the hand.

Yes, it's true that aluminum trainers cannot be as thin or shaped as steel. It's still a much softer metal and should be treated as such. My own sword, while well balanced, is still heavier than the few antique swords I've been fortunate enough to handle. Those ancient blades feel like lightsabers in comparison. It's a compromise for safety since it doesn't sport an edge of any kind. I still like it because it conditions my weak and flabby body.

So, in comparison, a Japanese style blade should not exhibit any kind of flex or vibration at all?

 

[Swordlady]

A katana can endure a few inches of flex and return true to form. And yes, katana do vibrate. All swords vibrate. How the vibrations travel on the sword depends on how it is made.

 

[pgsmith]

So, in comparison, a Japanese style blade should not exhibit any kind of flex or vibration at all?

That is incorrect. Japanese style swords will flex and vibrate the same as any long, thin piece of metal. I was referring to the use of aluminum alloy practice swords. What I said was ...

However, if you are practicing correctly, you should never be aware of any vibrations/harmonics

and that is a true statement. The Japanese sword arts use alloy iaito for solo forms practice. If you are practicing correctly, you should not feel your sword flex or vibrate. If you get flexion or vibration in solo forms practice, you are doing something wrong.

 

[Swordlady]

The Japanese sword arts use alloy iaito for solo forms practice. If you are practicing correctly, you should not feel your sword flex or vibrate. If you get flexion or vibration in solo forms practice, you are doing something wrong.

Actually...you shouldn't get *that* much vibration whenever practicing with *any* sword, right? Not even a well-made Euro sword should vibrate that much, even if it makes contact with a target (this is from personal experience; please correct me if I'm wrong...)

Though...the way a katana is built, you shouldn't feel any vibration from the tsuka if you're practicing properly.

 

[Calm Intention]

So far, I have been using wooden swords and i will continue to use them, but I was wondering if training with a heavier or longer sword would be better than just using a normal length bokken? And does it matter if a different type of sword was used at times or would that be bad for technique reasons? feel free to answer, or post other factors that could be discussed further.

To each at their own speed and sense of safety.

For training, I think a standard full tang 440 Stainless is best for me.
I like something weighted enough to do the job(which will never happen in real life in 100,000 potential conflicts....but, go with what will work best).

Training is the key here, and I find going with the real deal the best way to go(assuming we are talking solataire practice).
Be careful please, but the sharp stuff causes you to focus and become more proficient a.s.a.p......or you'lll show the consequences.

 

[Swordlady]

To each at their own speed and sense of safety.

For training, I think a standard full tang 440 Stainless is best for me.
I like something weighted enough to do the job(which will never happen in real life in 100,000 potential conflicts....but, go with what will work best).

Um...exactly what kind of training are you doing with a stainless steel sword? You *do* know that most all stainless steel swords (except by this one swordmaker, whose *functional* stainless steel swords are very expensive) aren't really suitable for any kind of use, right? Stainless steel requires a special kind of heat treat, since stainless itself tends to be brittle. Good for short blades (like kitchen knives), but not really good as sword blades. I've heard of stainless steel swords getting snapped in two from light to moderate swinging. Please be careful.

Edited to add: Couldn't find the name of the swordmaker I was thinking of, but I *did* find this nicely written post by Adrian Ko on SFI about stainless steel swords: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17124

 

[Charles Mahan]

You *do* know that most all stainless steel swords (except by this one swordmaker, whose *functional* stainless steel swords are very expensive) aren't really suitable for any kind of use, right?

Of course he doesn't. That much is pretty clear from his post. He implies that a stainless steel weapon is "the real deal". A clear sign of ignorance on the topic. Folks we shouldn't have to keep repeating this, but if you follow this guys advice over countless forum posts to the contrary, well... good luck getting the stainless steel splinters out of your eyes, and here's to hoping the feeling will one day return to your feet.

 

[Calm Intention]

Um...exactly what kind of training are you doing with a stainless steel sword? You *do* know that most all stainless steel swords (except by this one swordmaker, whose *functional* stainless steel swords are very expensive) aren't really suitable for any kind of use, right? Stainless steel requires a special kind of heat treat, since stainless itself tends to be brittle. Good for short blades (like kitchen knives), but not really good as sword blades. I've heard of stainless steel swords getting snapped in two from light to moderate swinging. Please be careful

Hi Swordlady,

The question was about 'training', and unless I'm missing something, training can present itself in a few ways.
I personally am 'solataire', and am not part of any school(I enjoy the discipline of doing weapons kata).

I prefer my full tang blade...it makes me focused- or else I'm toast.
I admit, I've no idea about your 'heat treat', but then, I'm not whacking anything- so I shouldn't have any worry.

*Hi, we're both from Philly, so I'm certain you know of Asian World, Bolos(that just moved when the Pennsauken Market shut down), and the outlet at Rt. 168 near Rt. 295. Kudos to you SwordLady!

 

[Calm Intention]

Of course he doesn't. That much is pretty clear from his post. He implies that a stainless steel weapon is "the real deal". A clear sign of ignorance on the topic. Folks we shouldn't have to keep repeating this, but if you follow this guys advice over countless forum posts to the contrary, well... good luck getting the stainless steel splinters out of your eyes, and here's to hoping the feeling will one day return to your feet.

thankyou very much.:mp5:

Just joking guy, but when you use the term 'ignorant', just raises my hackles.
I think we differ on approach only because of our definition of what is meant by training.
Since I've not engaged any kind of contact, I understand your position....peace.

 

[lhommedieu]

Currently I'm using a pinute, which is a long, straight variant of the Filipino bolo.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Charles Mahan]

thankyou very much.:mp5:

Just joking guy, but when you use the term 'ignorant', just raises my hackles.
I think we differ on approach only because of our definition of what is meant by training.
Since I've not engaged any kind of contact, I understand your position....peace.

What's wrong with being ignorant? I'm ignorant about all sorts of things. I know almost nothing about putting up wallpaper for instance.

The good news about ignorance is that it's curable. Do some forum searches for stainless steel at http://www.e-budo.com , http://www.swordforum.com , this forum, or any other serious JSA forum of your choosing. There is a pretty broadly held consensus on the part of nearly EVERYONE who trains that Stainless is useless for training tools. They're good for hanging on the wall and that is pretty much it. And no they are not safe even for solo practice. Why? Do the forum searches.

 

[Swordlady]

Hi Swordlady,

The question was about 'training', and unless I'm missing something, training can present itself in a few ways.
I personally am 'solataire', and am not part of any school(I enjoy the discipline of doing weapons kata).

I prefer my full tang blade...it makes me focused- or else I'm toast.
I admit, I've no idea about your 'heat treat', but then, I'm not whacking anything- so I shouldn't have any worry.

*Hi, we're both from Philly, so I'm certain you know of Asian World, Bolos(that just moved when the Pennsauken Market shut down), and the outlet at Rt. 168 near Rt. 295. Kudos to you SwordLady!

But...do you understand my point about the brittleness of most stainless steel swords? A *properly* made sword would had undergone heat treatment; this would enable the sword to better retain an edge and durability (someone else please jump in, because my knowledge of heat treatment is VERY limited!) Stainless steel sword blades require a more specialized kind of heat treat, which is why most swordmakers don't even try using stainless steel. Most of those production stainless steel "swords" you see in martial art stores or eBay are cheaply made. I wouldn't even trust most of the cheap carbon steel swords which have been more and more prevalent on eBay today. Poor heat treatment - even of carbon steel blade - equals a poorly made sword.

Run a search of "heat treatment" on SFI for more information.

I've owned a set of stainless steel full-tang katana in the past, probably very similar to yours. I didn't try swinging them around at all, though I dry-handled them a little. I've also had the opportunity to handle several different *functional* katana (most of them low to mid level production kats). Even a cheap Paul Chen/Hanwei Practical Plus katana handles a LOT better than any of the stainless steel kats. Your stainless steel katana probably has no distal taper to speak of, and is most likely poorly balanced. Trust me, you will feel a difference if you handle a *real* katana (even if it's a low end one).

By the way, if you really want to handle a heavier sword, give the Cold Steel katana a try. Too beefy for my taste, but they may be right up your alley. Just be VERY careful when handling a sharpened blade, especially since you don't have an formal training. Don't try any "speed draws" or blind noto (resheath). And please do NOT twirl the sword around. It is ridiculously EASY to cut yourself.

This thread has been posted on MT a few months ago, but it's worth linking to again. This fellow was "self-training" for over a decade, but nearly lost an arm due to a single lapse in judgment: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

 

[Calm Intention]

1.There is a pretty broadly held consensus on the part of nearly EVERYONE who trains that Stainless is useless for training tools. They're good for hanging on the wall and that is pretty much it.

2And no they are not safe even for solo practice. Why? Do the forum searches.

Hi C.M.,

Possibly 'training tools' has a different meaning to myself than the others here.
Again my initial response to the thread starter was 'what I found right for my purposes of training', and if it appeared that I was advising others to 'do what I do', that was not my intention.
Yes, they are not safe, and that's why I like its challenge.

I like my training regime, it lacks the necessary component of a partner to practice technique- and of course I would only use wood at that point.

 

[Swordlady]

Possibly 'training tools' has a different meaning to myself than the others here.
Again my initial response to the thread starter was 'what I found right for my purposes of training', and if it appeared that I was advising others to 'do what I do', that was not my intention.
Yes, they are not safe, and that's why I like its challenge.

Wait a sec...you know that playing around with stainless steel swords is unsafe - and you're doing it anyway? Seriously...you are playing with fire.

There have been a LOT of accidents caused by folks playing around with their stainless steel sword-like objects (called SLOs on SFI). I don't have time to run a search on SFI right now (I'm at work), but you could find them easily enough.

I like my training regime, it lacks the necessary component of a partner to practice technique- and of course I would only use wood at that point.

And what exactly is your "training regime"? What are you using as a point of reference?

Self-training has been addressed on MT, SFI, and other fora countless times - and the general consensus is that it is not beneficial in the long run. All sword arts have nuances that can only be taught in person, not by a book or a video. Please read the SFI thread I posted, and also this old MT thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29955

Believe me, it only takes a split-second to cut, maim, or kill yourself with a long sharp blade. Safety first!

 

[Calm Intention]

But...do you understand my point about the brittleness of most stainless steel swords? A *properly* made sword would had undergone heat treatment; this would enable the sword to better retain an edge and durability (someone else please jump in, because my knowledge of heat treatment is VERY limited!) Stainless steel sword blades require a more specialized kind of heat treat, which is why most swordmakers don't even try using stainless steel. Most of those production stainless steel "swords" you see in martial art stores or eBay are cheaply made. I wouldn't even trust most of the cheap carbon steel swords which have been more and more prevalent on eBay today. Poor heat treatment - even of carbon steel blade - equals a poorly made sword.

Run a search of "heat treatment" on SFI for more information.

I've owned a set of stainless steel full-tang katana in the past, probably very similar to yours. I didn't try swinging them around at all, though I dry-handled them a little. I've also had the opportunity to handle several different *functional* katana (most of them low to mid level production kats). Even a cheap Paul Chen/Hanwei Practical Plus katana handles a LOT better than any of the stainless steel kats. Your stainless steel katana probably has no distal taper to speak of, and is most likely poorly balanced. Trust me, you will feel a difference if you handle a *real* katana (even if it's a low end one).

By the way, if you really want to handle a heavier sword, give the Cold Steel katana a try. Too beefy for my taste, but they may be right up your alley. Just be VERY careful when handling a sharpened blade, especially since you don't have an formal training. Don't try any "speed draws" or blind noto (resheath). And please do NOT twirl the sword around. It is ridiculously EASY to cut yourself.

This thread has been posted on MT a few months ago, but it's worth linking to again. This fellow was "self-training" for over a decade, but nearly lost an arm due to a single lapse in judgment: http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

Thankyou Swordlady,

You'll really hate me, but I do 'twirl' my sword(sometimes two at once).
Double edged swords scare me though, and I wouldn't go near one.
You know much more about swords than myself, I don't even know the type of swords I have, but as I mentioned, they are full tang, so chopping/slashing motions during kata, will not result in anything breaking off. The majority of swords(like 95%) I've seen in these commerical distributors, are garbage and not full tang.
*I also probably mistaked when I said 'real deal', because these are not swords individually forged, and are only in the $100. range. Still, they suit my purpose.

I'll check the link, thankyou.

 

[Calm Intention]

Wait a sec...you know that playing around with stainless steel swords is unsafe - and you're doing it anyway? Seriously...you are playing with fire.

There have been a LOT of accidents caused by folks playing around with their stainless steel sword-like objects (called SLOs on SFI). I don't have time to run a search on SFI right now (I'm at work), but you could find them easily enough.

And what exactly is your "training regime"? What are you using as a point of reference?

Self-training has been addressed on MT, SFI, and other fora countless times - and the general consensus is that it is not beneficial in the long run. All sword arts have nuances that can only be taught in person, not by a book or a video. Please read the SFI thread I posted, and also this old MT thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29955

Believe me, it only takes a split-second to cut, maim, or kill yourself with a long sharp blade. Safety first!

Hi again,
I think we both synchronized on this thread(you may have caught my other response to you a second ago).

I don't know what to say, that's my training regime, and I've been doing this for a few years. I even had a drinking problem at one point, and to say the least, my weekends would have made anyone shiver- but my control is pretty darn good if I may say so, and at worst, a nick or two in all this time.
You'd love my double cleaver workout(employing Sai, and double stick like movements). I'll even grip the backs of the cleavers, flip them around my fingers, execute slashing movement, come back to the handles, etc.

These type exercises help build my dexterity and familiarity with all kinds of weapons, their weights;; and various aspects associated with each, can be translated to other weapons, and empty hand movements.
I confidence in my ability is what keeps me safe; I don't fear my weapon, but believe me, I do 100% respect it.

 

[Swordlady]

Thankyou Swordlady,

You'll really hate me, but I do 'twirl' my sword(sometimes two at once).

No, I don't hate you for saying that, but post that bit on SFI - and you'll have at least two dozen people jumping down your throat.

Seriously...please stop twirling your swords around. There is absolutely NO practicality in doing such maneuvers. Not to mention that any sensible JSA sensei would laugh at your face.

During my visit to Angus Trim's shop in Seattle, some knucklehead picked up a longsword, proceeded to twirl it all over the place - and almost hit me with the blade. He was also lucky not to hit himself with the sword.

Double edged swords scare me though, and I wouldn't go near one.
You know much more about swords than myself, I don't even know the type of swords I have, but as I mentioned, they are full tang, so chopping/slashing motions during kata, will not result in anything breaking off. The majority of swords(like 95%) I've seen in these commerical distributors, are garbage and not full tang.
*I also probably mistaked when I said 'real deal', because these are not swords individually forged, and are only in the $100. range. Still, they suit my purpose.

I'll check the link, thankyou.

A $100 sword most likely is NOT *functional* in any way - whether it has a full tang or not. A two-foot long stainless steel blade has the potential of snapping even with a moderately powered swing, due to the brittleness of the metal. Please stop practicing with those "swords" and stick to bokken!

 

[Charles Mahan]

they are full tang, so chopping/slashing motions during kata, will not result in anything breaking off.

See. There's that ignorance thing cropping up again. Full tang does not mean it is safe to train with, even solo. Go do those forum searches. If you want something to train with solo, then what you want is an iaito and not a stainless steel wallhanger.

Actually you'd be far better off putting your wallhanger down and finding some real instruction. Why play around at sword twirling when you can enroll in genuine sword instruction?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Just say "NO" to stainless steel! :asian:

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Calm Intention]

Seriously...please stop twirling your swords around. There is absolutely NO practicality in doing such maneuvers. Not to mention that any sensible JSA sensei would laugh at your face.

A $100 sword most likely is [/b]NOT *functional* in any way[/b] - whether it has a full tang or not. A two-foot long stainless steel blade has the potential of snapping even with a moderately powered swing, due to the brittleness of the metal. Please stop practicing with those "swords" and stick to bokken!

As to the practicality aspects of twirling(not a large part of my routine), I just feel it adds a measure of awareness and control.
I remember working out with nunchuks when I was younger, and would do all the little flashy moves. Now, I don't like them, and years back I learned to cut out the flash, and go with 'whats useful'.
Still, maybe those flashy moves helped over-all awareness/knowledge and weapon control?

When you say 'functional', again, I'm only doing kata.
Well, I guess Charles is right, because I am not aware that a sword like mine can break in two from just swinging it.:idunno: