What the...even MORE new poomsae from Kukkiwon?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by TrueJim, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    1) Yes sir, time will tell. Kukkiwon designed 10 new poomsae for competition, categorized by age group, but so far WT has apparently adopted only 3 of those poomsae, also organized by age group. We'll have to see how widely these competition poomsae actually get used in tournaments.

    In theory, if a taekwondo instructor fields a team that competes in sports poomsae, he will now have to learn at least some of those 10 new forms - the forms corresponding to the age groups in his team.

    2) This is for black belts only, and only for the final rounds of the competition. So in theory, only the most elite of athletes will be practicing these forms. Of course, instructors will still need to know them, in order to teach them.

    3) In YouTube on a PC, click on the little gear icon in the lower right-hand corner of the video, and you will be given the option of playing the video at different speeds. I play the video at 1/4 speed and hit the pause button at each move. It's very tedious, and very error-prone. I wish Kukkiwon would publish written instructions for the new poomsae -- it would make diagraming these forms MUCH easier.
     
  2. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    I know my way around YouTube.

    How did you make the diagram?
     
  3. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    We have approximately 30 active black belt students at my school. Excluding me, only one can do a 540 hook kick and none can do a 540 roundhouse (the others that can are red belts). I can't imagine going to a tournament with my school with this as an expectation. (Our school doesn't prioritize the acrobatic demonstration kicks as much as what's useful for sparring or self defense. The most we're expected to do are 360 kicks).
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Jim, there are browser extensions that make this easier to control, put the speed controls on top of the video so you can adjust in a single click. If that would be helpful, I’ll look at the name of the Chrome extension I use when I’m back at my PC.
     
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  5. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    That might be helpful, thank you!
     
  6. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    I use some software that I wrote using (of all things!) some CAD software called OpenSCAD. When I first started trying to make these diagrams (years ago now!) I tried a bunch of different 3D products (Daz, Strata, Blender, Unity, etc.), but I really needed something that was easily "programmatic" -- where I could define a movement once and then reuse the movement repeatedly. As crazy as it sounds, CAD software -- specially OpenSCAD -- turned out to be the easiest solution. For example in OpenSCAD you can draw a cylinder with a single command, whereas other products would require that I write a bunch of code to define a cylinder first.

    So each figurine in the diagram is made up of "bones" -- and "bones" are made up of simple cylinders and spheres.

    [​IMG]

    It takes hundreds of lines of code to define a pose-able figurine, but once I have one, I can write more code to define the basic taekwondo movements:

    [​IMG]

    Then once I have the basic taekwondo movements, I can combine them to create poomsae:

    [​IMG]

    From there I get a 3D diagram that I can paste into PowerPoint and mark-up, finally resulting in a diagram like this:

    [​IMG]

    But at the end of the day, that entire diagram is nothing but an ungodly number of cylinders and spheres arranged with ridiculous complexity!

    This is what the beginning of Bigak looks like:

    include <../Mannequin.scad> // this defines a figurine
    include <../PoomsaeDesigner.scad> // this defines taekwondo movements

    my_fn = 32; // defines how smooth the round surfaces will be
    // $vpr = [27, 0, 359.8]; $vpt = [24.809, -10.5613, 23.4784]; $vpd = 3378.83; // defines the viewplane

    // BIGAK
    // Across the beginning bar of the poomsae
    position_grid( 0.0, 0.0) GA() { closed_stance("gold") overlapped_hands("gold"); } // ready
    position_grid( 1.0, 0.0) DA() { left_walking_stance("gold") left_high_block("gold"); } // 1
    position_grid( 2.0, 0.0) DA() { right_front_stance("gold") right_elbow_uppercut("gold"); } // 2
    position_grid( 1.7, 0.5) DA() { right_tiger_stance("gold") right_elbow_side_strike("gold"); } // 3
    position_grid( 2.7, 0.5) DA() { left_front_stance("gold") right_punch("gold"); } // 4
    position_grid( 3.8, 0.5) DA() { RIGHT_FRONT_KICK("gold"); } // 5
    position_grid( 5.0, 0.5) DA() { LEFT_SIDE_KICK("gold",120); } // 6
    position_grid( 6.3, 0.5) DA() { RIGHT_ROUNDHOUSE_KICK("gold",120); } // 7


    So to diagram one of Kukkiwon's new poomsae I have to:
    • Take good notes while watching a YouTube video frame by frame
    • Scratch my noggin and make a best guess when the video is unclear
    • Hope that every movement in the video is one that I've already defined
    • But if it's not, then I have to go back to the code and define the new movement
    • Then figure out how to lay out all the movements in a diagram so that they'll be as clear as possible
    • And finally write about 50 lines of code (for a 50 step poomsae) that defines: (a) the movement, (b) what direction it's face, and (c) where it's positioned in the diagram
    • After that, I save the .png image, paste it into PowerPoint, and add notes.
    Voila! Simple! :confused:
     
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  7. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Oh, and then much later it dawned on me that since I had 3D figurines in software, I could upload the figurines to Shapeways for 3D printing. So the exact same software is used to make this stuff: Majest by Majest - Shapeways Shops
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    A lot of work, Jim. Impressive.
     
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  9. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Thank you sir! I was out for 6 months with an ankle injury after an ill-conceived back-hook-kick (I'm not a very talented taekwondoin!) so I had to do something to keep me busy. ;-)
     
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  10. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    By the way, these diagrams can also make nice "posters" for schools. In software I took the 8 taegeuk diagrams plus koryo and laid them out in a 3x3 grid and then uploaded that massive diagram to a local printshop to make a huge poster that we hung on our school wall. It looks nice I think.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Next time you injure yourself, I’ll teach you my NGA kata, so you have something to while away the time. You know, I like to help people out. :)
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    It's HTML5 Video Speed Control. It works in YouTube and anywhere else you have HTML5 videos (most of them I've run into). In some cases (like on MT), it works but is unusable, because the speed controls are right under the title link YouTube adds to embedded videos, so I have to watch those on YouTube in order to control the speed. It's nice to be able to ramp the speed up during long intro's and then slow back down when something interesting starts.
     
  13. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master Black Belt

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    Do you have a lot of your black belts going to USAT Nationals to compete in poomsae?
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    No, but the only tournament remotely close to our school has a tendency to do "world class" stuff at the expense of traditional competition. This has led to judges who don't understand traditional poomsae to sparring rules that resulted in a LOT of facial injuries this year.

    I could just imagine them requiring this next year.
     
  15. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    I've witnessed this as well. Generally you also can't convince those judges that anything other than the Sports Poomsae style is what should be judged at a tournament. As previously mentioned, my favorite example of this is a Low Cross Block which in Sports Poomsae in the U.S. is interpreted as an Augmented Low Block, which completely changes the hand and arms positions. (I.e., rather than both fists facing each other, the lower arm is turned outward like a Low Block, and the whole movement is performed over the lead leg rather than at the center of the body.)
     
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  16. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    For me whether it's seen as a Low Cross Block or an Augmented Low Block depends more on the starting position than the final position (a fist at each waist versus a little hinge). From the earliest Kukkiwon official poomsae DVDs this has always started at the little hinge position. This is also the way it was taught on the 2013 Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course (Korea), 2015 Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course (Austria) and 2016 Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course (Korea).

    The block stops around the centre because that's most natural (both arms equally extended body facing forwards, rather than slightly off centre). I haven't seen it stop over the lead leg in competition. For example Master Kang Suji (one of the best in the world) does it centrally (although she moves QUICK)



    I've also looked for the hand position of the lower arm and haven't seen that done incorrectly either (backs of the fists facing each other is correct).

    There are a number of inconsistencies in poomsae, but for me this has always been one of those "some dojangs do it incorrectly as a low cross block, but it's technically an augmented/reinforced low block with a strange blocking surface".
     
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  17. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

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    Not disagreeing with any of this. A USAT referee explained to me and others about 6 months ago that currently in the U.S. the judges want to see the Low Block arm over the lead leg (as with a conventional Low Block), and the Outer Forearm of the blocking arm as the blocking surface (as with a conventional Low Block). But the referee also said that this interpretation varies from country to country, and from year to year. Apparently, it depends on the interpretation of whoever is the current national referee chairman.

    To Skribs' original point, 99.9% of students in the U.S. will perform the movement as you described it (centered on the body, with the back of the forearm as the blocking surface) meaning that the student will likely suffer a deduction at any event where the judges are USAT-trained, even if the event is not a World Class Poomsae event.

    I like the distinction that you make between how the two blocks are chambered. One of the people who was also in the room with me and that USAT referee 6 months ago later whispered to me, "Does that mean that a High Cross Block that chambers with a hinge is actually an Augmented High Block?"
     
  18. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    The movement in Taegeuk 7 (augmented/reinforced low block) is described in GM Kang Ik Pil's book as 엇걸어 아래막기 (Eotgeoro araemakki) which means a crossing/intersecting low block. And the high version in Ilyeo is described as 엇걸어 얼굴막기 (Eotgeoro eolgulmakki) which is the same thing with face block, so I guess it would be called an augmented high block technically.

    However, I haven't actually seen the Korean for a "cross block" as the technique as we used to do it as decades ago (hands at either side of the body, going to a X shape), so I don't know if this is a change in the way a "cross block" is done or a different technique (which people have just always done incorrectly as a cross block).
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Master of Arts

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    We don't have the word "augmented" in our curriculum. That doesn't mean we don't have the block, but we usually just call any block using two hands a double block (i.e. "double low block") and use the fact that the students can see us performing the technique as the way for them to differentiate between various "double" blocks (for example, double low block being both hands down to the side, vs. double low as both hands crossed in front of you).

    With a low cross block, we use it as a block to protect our groin, over the centerline, so probably all of our students would get minus points on this type of block.

    Of course, we use Palgwe forms, and older versions of the Palgwe forms at that. Our curriculum hasn't really updated with the Kukkiwon one.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    A question related to the topic (if only slightly): when did the Kukkiwon switch from using Palgwe forms?
     

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