What style of karate was used as kickboxing??`

[ap Oweyn]

So what is the fourth style that make kickboxing? Jeet kune do?

I'd put taekwondo in there. Jeff Smith was another big name (though he seems not to have stuck in the public conciousness the way Wallace, Lewis, and Norris did). And, if I'm not mistaken, his background was taekwondo.


Stuart

 

[kungfu penguin]

don the dragon wilson was white dragon pum lai kathy long: san soo cant remember benny the jet's style

 

[Stonecold]

In the 70's full contact karate became very popular, it was a mix of karate, kung fu ect...kicks & boxing. This is when kickboxing was born in north america. In Ontario Canada kickboxing was baned, much as is m.m.a here now. The driving force of getting kickboxing back on track in Ontario were the Twin's of Twin Dragon kung-fu & kickboxing. They have had many sesussful shows in the pasted few years, there is a show coming up on Nov 15 / 09 in toronto, and they still have to deal with legal issues each time. Some times you have to stand up for your right to fight.

 

[Skpotamus]

Hmmm, I have seen some of the videos of norris, lewis and wallace competing before the kickboxing days, that was definitely point fighting and NOT full contact. No legs kicks were ever thrown, and no direct strikes to the face, hardly anything thrown to the head at all, I even saw a great video of norris getting a point for a "halo" kick to the head (he didn't make contact, just came close). I can't think of a single person who got dropped in any of hte matches I saw, compared to the kickboxing and full contact matches that came later that saw quite a bit of knock outs makes me lean towards them using a lot less contact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_e-QmZ7Jc&feature=related him vs joe lewis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJlb_p89Tgs&feature=related norris vs wallace

 

[Lee Mainprize]

I think most people know points fighting as "semi contact" as in score and stop.

Bill wallace had great hands must have been from boxing - you could tell his kicking came from points fighting - quick on sliding in.

Benny seemed more of a natural kickboxing - was he more of an MT stylist?

Thanks for the lewis V Wallace old video - had only seen the exhibition bout stuff much later.

 

[SPX]

I think most people know points fighting as "semi contact" as in score and stop.

Score-and-stop is point-stop fighting, not semi-contact. ITF TKD comps are "semi-contact" but are also continuous, usually two two-minute rounds.

Semi-contact is probably better defined as "moderate contact" (or in some cases "light contact").

 

[SPX]

And I remember what Kickboxing morphed into in the 80's. The piling on of rules and lots of other things led to a point where guys just learned how to BOX and they officially instituted a "minimum kicks" rule and then you had guys throwing the requisite 5 roundhouses per round and then boxing the rest out.

My understanding was that this DID become a big problem among many practitioners. I think the issue is that, sadly, American kickboxing was largely devoid of very skilled competitors. The majority were neither great kickers nor great boxers. A small percentage were one or the other, and an even smaller percentage were both.

There were some good kickers who used the rules to their advantage, though. . .

 

[SPX]

Now, many school teach something they call "kickboxing" but that is a misnomer. Usually they are teaching a mix of styles or just some kicks with some boxing hand moves put together and are peddling it out as a style in itself or a program. If you dig deep enough, you can find out what style they are using or taking away from to get what they are teaching.

I'm not sure I agree. I think kickboxing has become a style unto itself in the same sense that MMA has.

That doesn't mean that a fighter can't become a kickboxer or MMAist from an unorthodox background, but these days you can go learn kickboxing or MMA as its own, unified style that is separate from simply mixing karate with boxing, or in the case of MMA, muay Thai with wrestling and BJJ.

 

[Unreal Combat]

I think kickboxing has become a style unto itself.

This. Everything taught nowadays is generally refined for use in the ring, specifically for Kickboxing, and has a specific purpose behind it, regardless of what art it originally derived from.

Also you guys should remember that while Kickboxing originated from Karate practitioners who wanted to fight full contact they took a lot from Western Boxing and Thai Boxing to make it a more viable art for full contact competition. There's probably more Western Boxing and Thai Boxing in there, at a base level, than anything else.

Kickboxing is originally a mix of several arts, but it has, over time, evolved into it's own art. It deserves more recognition in my opinion.

 

[Mauthos]

There are only 2 important rules in life:

#1 Never tell anyone everything you know

Love this, always makes me laugh.

Also, Benny the Jet original started life out as a boxer (age of 5 I think) as he father was a professional boxer (his mum was a wrestler as well) but apart from that it could be argued he never really had a main style.

He trained under such noteworthy instructors such as Ed Parker, Tak Kubota, Billy Ryuisaki to name but 3 and was also working on his own style of full-contact karate mixing in the traditional kicks with his boxing ability. At this time he also competed on the Chuck Norris United states Karate Team.

One rumour surrounding him was that when asked what his style was as it was more flamboyant than the more traditional karate's and had enabled him to defeat fighters much larger than him, he was said to reply: 'It's like boxing, but with your feet, sort of Kick boxing I suppose.'

True or not, great story.

 

[Unreal Combat]

'It's like boxing, but with your feet, sort of Kick boxing I suppose.'

 

[punisher73]

I'm not sure I agree. I think kickboxing has become a style unto itself in the same sense that MMA has.

That doesn't mean that a fighter can't become a kickboxer or MMAist from an unorthodox background, but these days you can go learn kickboxing or MMA as its own, unified style that is separate from simply mixing karate with boxing, or in the case of MMA, muay Thai with wrestling and BJJ.

I agree with your opinion, and also with ArmorOfGod's opinion. There are some schools that do advertise "kickboxing" and basically take their own base style and add a few things to make it into a sport. Then there are others who only teach kickboxing and teach it as it's own methodology and system (yes, you can point at a specific technique and say that it comes from X, but it is still just a tool put into a different toolbox).

Because of the fad of MMA, I have also seen schools that used to advertise "kickboxing" now advertise what they do as "muay thai" and they haven't changed a thing. It is up to the student to do some research and talk to the teacher to find out exactly what they are teaching and what their credentials are.

As with ALL combat sports, they will adapt what they do to what works in that ruleset. Judo, for example, incorporated wrestling takedowns in it's early years and that became a part of their curriculum. Kickboxing took the snapping style roundhouse kicks and replaced them with the Muay Thai influenced roundhouse kicks because they worked better in that type of setting.

MMA has morphed into it's own thing that is different than it's individual parts. For example, you don't see a "pure boxing" stance due to leg kicks. You won't see a "pure muay thai" stance due to the takedowns, or on the other hand a "wrestling stance" because of the striking. It is a blending to capitalize on all those tools.

 

[Unreal Combat]

I agree with your opinion, and also with ArmorOfGod's opinion. There are some schools that do advertise "kickboxing" and basically take their own base style and add a few things to make it into a sport. Then there are others who only teach kickboxing and teach it as it's own methodology and system (yes, you can point at a specific technique and say that it comes from X, but it is still just a tool put into a different toolbox).

Because of the fad of MMA, I have also seen schools that used to advertise "kickboxing" now advertise what they do as "muay thai" and they haven't changed a thing. It is up to the student to do some research and talk to the teacher to find out exactly what they are teaching and what their credentials are.

As with ALL combat sports, they will adapt what they do to what works in that ruleset. Judo, for example, incorporated wrestling takedowns in it's early years and that became a part of their curriculum. Kickboxing took the snapping style roundhouse kicks and replaced them with the Muay Thai influenced roundhouse kicks because they worked better in that type of setting.

MMA has morphed into it's own thing that is different than it's individual parts. For example, you don't see a "pure boxing" stance due to leg kicks. You won't see a "pure muay thai" stance due to the takedowns, or on the other hand a "wrestling stance" because of the striking. It is a blending to capitalize on all those tools.

A well thought out post.

I would like to point out however that Kickboxers do utilize both fast snapping style roundhouses (if what you mean by this is the same as what I'm thinking, generally this will be lead leg kicks) and heavier Thai style roundhouses. The snapping style wasn't replaced, though how much a fighter will use of one or the other depends on his general style and background. You would see more snapping style kicks in light continuous for example than full blown full contact, but you would still see some snapping kicks used in full contact (example being a 12 round fight where speed, conserving power, and scoring points, is more important than levelling the hell out of the other guy and then getting knocked out early due to being too tired). I think this can partly depend on the instructors experience and background aswell. Some things work well for some fighters, some things don't.

 

[punisher73]

A well thought out post.

I would like to point out however that Kickboxers do utilize both fast snapping style roundhouses (if what you mean by this is the same as what I'm thinking, generally this will be lead leg kicks) and heavier Thai style roundhouses. The snapping style wasn't replaced, though how much a fighter will use of one or the other depends on his general style and background. You would see more snapping style kicks in light continuous for example than full blown full contact, but you would still see some snapping kicks used in full contact (example being a 12 round fight where speed, conserving power, and scoring points, is more important than levelling the hell out of the other guy and then getting knocked out early due to being too tired). I think this can partly depend on the instructors experience and background aswell. Some things work well for some fighters, some things don't.

I agree. I was thinking more of the rear leg roundhouse that used to be very common. But, you are correct, it hasn't been completely replaced and taken out, just it's usage more refined and added in the muay thai influenced version to round out (pardon the pun) the tools needed for competition.

 

[Unreal Combat]

I agree. I was thinking more of the rear leg roundhouse that used to be very common. But, you are correct, it hasn't been completely replaced and taken out, just it's usage more refined and added in the muay thai influenced version to round out (pardon the pun) the tools needed for competition.

I find snapping roundhouses are great kicks for getting a quick shot to the head. Once you've thrown a few shots to body and the guard starts dropping to cover etc, if you're quick enough with your step, I find they're great to catch someone with. Need to be just as quick bringing the leg back down though otherwise, if you leave it hanging and/or don't follow up, you get punished with a return.

I've learnt this lesson the hard way many times.

 

[frank raud]

Jean-Yves Theriault was a blue belt in jiu jitsu when he became champion. Seemed to do OK for the next 15 years or so.

 

[Mark Jacobs]

Thought I’d chime in on this since, over the years, I’ve interviewed many of the people who’ve been discussed here for Black Belt Magazine and other publications. To clear up a few things:

Yes, there were some karate vs. boxing and karate vs. wrestling matches held back in the 1950s and possibly even earlier, though how legitimate all these matches were, I couldn’t say. But from my understanding they were true style vs. style bouts as each person stuck pretty closely to his own style of fighting (for reference, see the Gene LeBell-Milo Savage judo vs. boxing match). Also, muay Thai and other forms of “kickboxing” were held throughout Asia for decades before the sport began in the west.

As for kickboxing in the west, Joe Lewis founded the sport in 1970. Lewis was originally a shorin-ryu karateka, though he and many of the other top tournament fighters from that era like Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris cross-trained with each other (Lewis also trained for a brief period with Bruce Lee in jeet kune do). Norris never fought full-contact, strictly the tournament karate of his day. That is not a criticism, as he was the most successful competitor under the only rules available for competition at the time. But those karate tournaments were definitely a far cry from full-contact kickboxing events. Contact was generally not supposed to be legal to the head in most of those tournaments, though naturally slips did occur and people did get hit in the face, sometimes quite hard. Since no padding was used in those days, such slips could cause some harsh injuries. Nevertheless, those injuries were usually accidents and not a regular occurrence. The level of contact was typically far below that found in boxing or kickboxing. That is the reason Lewis began training with boxers and, ultimately, founded kickboxing. He was contacted by a karate tournament promoter asking him to compete at his event and Lewis said he would fight only if it was a “full-contact” fight. They agreed to a set of rules which essentially allowed most of the techniques done in the karate tournaments of that era but with boxing gloves on, full-contact being legal, and no stopping to score points (kicks below the waist were not allowed in tournament karate and I do not believe they were allowed in Lewis’s original fights; they were definitely not allowed in the Professional Karate Association fights that began in 1974). The fights were basically boxing matches with kicks above the waist allowed. Since Lewis was the only top karateka of that era actively training in boxing, he pretty much cleaned up in those early fights (there’s a great picture of that first kickboxing match where Lewis and his opponent, Greg Baines, are going at it with Baines in a classic karate type horse stance with his hands low and Lewis upright with his hands high in a standard boxing stance).

In any case, Lewis fought a few more times like this until 1974 when the PKA held the first official “world championship” bouts, now calling the sport “full-contact karate.” Lewis won the heavyweight title, Jeff Smith (a Jhoon Rhee taekwondo student, I believe) won the lightheavy title, and Wallace won the middleweight crown. I believe there was one other titleist crowned but can’t recall who at the moment. Anyway, the PKA still used essentially the same rules combining karate and boxing in their bouts. A few years later, a rival organization, the World Karate Association, was formed and created their own champions, of which Benny Urquidez was one of the first and the most notable. I believe the WKA wanted to have more international appeal and, therefore, allowed leg kicks which were legal in Japan and Thailand. Thus, their style of kickboxing began to borrow more from muay Thai. Around this time, kickboxing also started to catch on in Europe. Many of the early fighters there, particularly in Holland, came from a background in kyokushin karate, which also allows leg kicks, and so their kickboxing tended to follow more the WKA model.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Not exactly, no. The rules then allowed for "heavy contact," low leg kicks, direct face contact, trips and sweeps, and could be won by knockout. The assertion that it "morphed" into modern Kickboxing is not entirely inaccurate. There were several "splits" and new organizations formed from the originals on the circuit, one of those was Kickboxing. Further, the early rules of Kickboxing were not all that dissimilar to the rules of the "Full Contact Karate" tournaments of the 70's.


He fought in "Full Contact Karate" tournaments with rules not dissimilar to Kickboxing rules (and in some cases, less restrictive than Kickboxing rules), against the likes of "Skipper" Mullins and Joe Lewis. It wasn't modern MMA, but it was about as hardcore as you could find at the time and still be legal.

While the claim that Norris wasn't a "Kickboxer" is technically correct, it is also misleading. Norris participated in what eventually morphed into Kickboxing. Norris' tournament career was OVER by the end of the early 70's, just a little before "Kickboxing" officially took off.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I did not know the rules allowed for heavy contact in Norris tournaments. None of the footage available indicates as such. If you have a source for this it would be appreciated. Another difference from Kickboxning is the breaking after connecting a strike (typical light contact karate rules), if I am not misstaken. Again this is from the footage provided on youtube.

 

[mjw1]

Kyushokin ???